making a demo sound - "mastering"?

A

alschmid

New member
Hello there

I have the usual band-trying-to-make-a-demo-sound-problem... We have recorded to 1/2" tape (16 tracks). It sounds pretty decent when listened to through the monitors - but as I burn it to the cd, it's just annoyingly thin and quiet.
How do I get the levels right?

I do have a few software-plugins at hands - a multiband compressor, limiter, full-parametric equalizer. I played around with them, but it wouldn't help very much. Which order and settings (compressor/limiter) would you suggest?

Does it matter whether I burn it from within the mastering pogram or I let it mix the song to a .WAV and then burn it from there?

Thanks a lot for any hints....
alex
 
How can it sound "decent" thru monitors, but "annoyingly thin and quiet" when burned to CD???

Sounds like there's a problem in the way you're getting the mix over to CD....

Bruce
 
Do you have a stand alone CD burner or are you going into a computer and burning a CD from there.
 
Hello Bruce, Hello Track Rat

It's as follows:
First, I mix the whole thing over an old Yamaha 16-Track board, and I compress the two lead voices with a Behringer Composer (2x Compressor), the guitars and the bass with a Behringer Multicomp (okok, not really good but I don't really have very much money...). I add two reverb sources, one from a Carvin XP4 MultiFX and one from a Zoom thing which I borrowed (I don't know the product name).
My monitors are two Yamaha MSP-5s.

Now when I listen to the mix in the room where I mix (which is a really "dry" room with lots of carpets and no reflecting walls or so) it sounds good, at least when I listen to it loudly. I'd like to take this "loudness" over to the CD...

I record the signal from the board into a computer. I toy around a bit with Samplitude and export the thing to WAV and burn it from there.
When listened to the CD loudly again, it's okay but a bit thin. When listened to it quitely again, it sounds VERY thin.

How do I make it sound thicker, "louder" when played quietly (as known from "commercial" CDs)?

Thanks a lot for your quick answer!
alex/switzerland
 
"it sounds good, at least when I listen to it loudly. "

it should sound good even at lower volumes....what monitors are you mixing on?.....
 
There's a number of problems here.... (none of which have to do with burning CDs!)

1) You have to learn your monitors and how to translate mixes on them. It's also not practical to mix loudly - just about any mix sounds good played loudly -- it's at lower levels that problem area jump out at you. Typical listening levels for many engineers is around the 85-90db mark... Most "mix-too-low-in-volume" problems are due to inadequate or improper mixing techniques.

2) You mention reverb - extraneous reverb can muddy the sound or make it thin and distant - pay attention to the 'verb levels.

3) What soundcard are you using to get the sound into the computer? If it's some flavour of gaming card (ie, SoundBlaster), you're really messing with your sound, since the A/D converters on these s/c's are pretty sad....

4) Overuse of compression can also make the sound dull and lifeless... again, use only the minimum needed, if at all....

5) Commercial CDs -- in a DIY environment with modest gear, you will NEVER get your music as loud as a commercial CD. And many cases, you wouldn't want to unless you are of the frame of mind that less than 2db of dynamic range is good!

Bruce
 
No quik and dirty answer. First thing I'd suggest is to listen back to commercial CDs of bands that are simalar to the style of music you're doing through the system you're mixing on. Try running a CD player through two channels with the EQ flat and just panned left and right. Set the gain so it's peaking around zero on the mixers meters. Listen to enough CDs to get a feel for the way it "should" sound. Also. don't mix too loudly. If you can get a hold of an SPL meter (Radio Shack sells a dandy one for around $50 or less) see what the level is in your mixing position. Try to keep it around 80 to 85dB A weighted. Keeping in mind what the commercial CDs sounded like at the same level should give you at least some reference point.
Something else to keep in mind is your sound card going into the computer. If it's a garden variety cheep one, the A/D/A converters are less than stellar and COULD be a part of the problem.
 
Bruce

Thanks for your extensive answer.
I actually knew that you should not mix at (too) high volumes - I didnt. I only wanted to point out that it sounds good and fat when played loudly but thin when played rather quietly.

However, I think I didn't use reverb and compression too badly. The compression is rather light, and my bandmates keep asking me "is there any reverb on the record"? (Actually, there is, but I've been cautious because I tend to add too much reverb during a longer session)

You wrote that I could NEVER get the mix as loud as it is on commercial cds. I thought so... ;-(
Because of the musical style (pop/rock music) and the dedication of the recording (get as many gigs as possible ;-)), I need it to be as loud a possible.
But how do I even get near that "loudness"? When I try to boost the mix on Samplitude, it starts to clip pretty soon...

However I'll first re-mix the crucial songs. I think I'll try to add a bit of lower mids to guitars and keys (piano).

btw. FYI. the mix of the songs includes in average:
- 5 Drum Tracks (Snare, HiHat, Bass drum, 2x Overhead)
- 2-3 Guitar Tracks
- Keyboard track (mostly hammond or piano)
- Bass track
- 2 Voices
- percussion such as shakers, congas or triangle
I've panned the BD, Snare and Bass in dead center, Hihat slightly off, Overheads left and right (3 resp. 9 o'clock), guitars mostly left/right, the keyboard between the overheads and the center (right), percussion about the same left, main voice in center and the backing voice slightly off center.

Thanks a lot - I really appreciate your help!
alex
 
recorder

Of course you can always save up some money and take your mixes to a bona fide mastering facility where they have high-end compressors/limiters, EQs, the right monitors, an accurate room, and the trained ears to make it sound like a commercial CD. It will probably cost less than you think.
 
Loudness

Hi folks.

Here is what I can offer.

Getting "loudness" is more than just having the meters peak at Zero.
It's about getting the bulk of the mix "average" power up, not just peaking quickly.

Here is one common mistake : Make sure that you don't have too much kick drum energy (particularly low frequency) in your mix. If you do, the kick drum will be your "limiting factor", since you need to keep it below clipping.
Keep anything "transient" in nature down a bit in the mix. This will eat up valuable headroom, for the "average" power in the mix.

I would recommend two things after meeting the criteria above:

1) Get a good limiter. Something like the Waves L1 UltraMaximizer is pretty good. This will prevent clipping on the peaks.

2) Magneto is a good tool for thickening up the "average" or the "meat" of the song, not the peaks.

Don't just crank levels on everything.
As the guys mentioned above, there is a line you don't cross between getting it "loud" and squashing the dynamics.

For an idea of how "thick" your mix really is, take the kick and snare out of the mix completely. You will be left with your "average" power mix density. If it is WAY below your kick and snare....correct that first.

Good Luck!

SH
 
on reading the posts, it appears that the mix sounds good (albeit when loud), but when transferred to the computer, and burned, it now sounds thin(even at loud levels). Unless the problem was incorrectly stated, the OBVIOUS problem is in the transfer BACK into the computer, or some screw up with the CD burning procedure/software/new .wav file. It's common knowledge that things sound better (usually) when played louder...for various reasons, hence another "reason" for *pumping up mixes*...but if it sounded bad at the final stage when played loud....maybe you should turn it up past 11 to at least 12 or 13, at the least!!!
 
Unnecessary post I know, since the masters of sound has spoken above, but i have to agree on that you a loudness maximizer of some sort. I use the mastering limiter from db-audioware.
 
Bruce?

What do you think of the software normalizer stuff. I tried it on some things and found it convieniant and easy to do. I also have a finalizer that also does that task but havent used it yet.
 
who makes the software?

you mentioned 'magneto' and 'waves L1 ultramixer'. who makes the software and is it free? if not, do you have any free software app links? THANKS! :)
 
get a reference CD,music whose sound you think is really well produced(I like Aja).Download gram.exe

http://prorec.com/prorec/downloads.nsf/filename?openview&count=1000

Analyze the reference CD using gram.Now load your mix and compare your mix to the pro mix.Re-EQ your mix to more closely approximate the pro mix.

I think I've got a pretty good ear,yet nothing beats being able to SEE the peaks,put a mouse cursor on it and get an exact freq readout.Makes compressor and para EQ settings much more effective.

Tom
 
Re: Bruce?

darrin_h2000 said:
What do you think of the software normalizer stuff. I tried it on some things and found it convieniant and easy to do. I also have a finalizer that also does that task but havent used it yet.
Click to expand...
So far, I haven't used any s/w "mastering" tools, except for the on-board DSP on the Masterlink (which doesn't really count as s/w...)

It does a smashing job - but I never use normalizing... and only light compression if any at all anyways! I do use the on-board limiter frequently and it works VERY well.

Bruce
 
Tigershark: Steinberg makes Magneto, and Waves makes the, uh, Waves L1 - these aren't free, but do a search - some folks have posted some links to some low cost or even free plug-ins out there that may be useful.
 
3) What soundcard are you using to get the sound into the computer? If it's some flavour of gaming card (ie, SoundBlaster), you're really messing with your sound, since the A/D converters on these s/c's are pretty sad....


Hey blue bear, this is kinda off the topic of this thread but what soundcard do you recommend? I'm in the market for a new one....I have heard fairly decent things about the new soundblaster audigee card as far as price/quality ratio. Is that all just hype or no? And what is it specifically about an A/D converter that makes it good or bad?


if you would be so kind thanks
-nave
 
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