Live Vocal Mic, Signal Chain

[iownrocknroll]

Hello, My band ATLAS plays the indie club circuit up the east coast.

When we watch back video of our shows my vocals tend to sound rather dark and muffled.
I am looking for a mic with a bit of presence to use live.

Also, I have an older berhinger tube pre amp and a dbx 266 xl I could use for a compressor. Do you think I should build my own vocal box and bring it to shows.

 

[moresound]

Hello singer of Atlas....I take it that you don't provide the sound system when your on tour right?
Now it all depends on the location of the camera during the filming and you know those little microphones on them are not that good.
Do you provide your own vocal microphone at these shows?

Answer these questions and we'll take it from there.

 

[iownrocknroll]

We shoot our shows from all angles; left right, front of club, back of club, center.

I always use the house/club mics which are 9 times out of 10 a shure 58.
My range is bari-tenor, though I do hit some alto notes.

I am looking to provide my own Microphone. My voice is somewhat dark. We just tracked an EP, and a u47 long body was to dark as was the Blue Bottle with the B7 Capsules, so we went with the blue bottle with a B0

We tried the stock Five Fish and Purple Pre's in the studio but ended up with a millenia.

I am mainly looking to sound better live and I am hoping I can just hand off a XLR send to sound guy. I was thinking either using some older rack gear I no longer use in my home studio and by buying a small mixer.

It seems as though there is never enough compression/Limiting on my voice live and that there is always tons of low end

 

[iownrocknroll]

also the camera we are using is a canon that cost around a grand last christmas.

it sounds fantastic and takes XLR input.

 

[moresound]

OK so it 's not the cameras microphones I'm not sure if you really need to bring a rack with all of that out board gear in it unless the PAs that your using while on the road don't offer such things.
I would just audition a lot of different microphones that would complement your vocals live.
There are many to choose from but as you stated you need to bring the highs and upper mids out more.
How about something along the lines of a Neumann 105, or Shure 87. There is also a few Audix microphones that are really bright.
Do you travel with your own FOH person? most times this will make a world of difference.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I always use the house/club mics which are 9 times out of 10 a shure 58.
My range is bari-tenor, though I do hit some alto notes.

I am looking to provide my own Microphone. My voice is somewhat dark. We just tracked an EP, and a u47 long body was to dark as was the Blue Bottle with the B7 Capsules, so we went with the blue bottle with a B0

We tried the stock Five Fish and Purple Pre's in the studio but ended up with a millenia.

I am mainly looking to sound better live and I am hoping I can just hand off a XLR send to sound guy. I was thinking either using some older rack gear I no longer use in my home studio and by buying a small mixer.

It seems as though there is never enough compression/Limiting on my voice live and that there is always tons of low end

Mic choice will make a big difference, preamp a lesser difference. But before going that route find out how the house engineer is eqing your vocal mic. For any kind of loud rock music you'll need to keep your lips on the grill, and in that case there's a bunch of low frequency buildup. To get a natural sound a lot of lows and low-mids have to be taken way down with eq. If that isn't happening then I'd suspect the sound person's mixing habits and deal with that rather than throwing a bunch of gear at the problem. A simple twist of a few knobs at FOH should be able to get you way closer to the sound you want.

As for compression, consider improving your mic technique. If your levels are set for normal singing at the lips-on-grill position you can back off just an inch or three when you really get loud to control your own volume. If you have compression on your voice in the monitors your increase the chances of feedback and voice strain. Compression on your voice in the main mix is fine, but it needs to be adjusted by a competent sound person who can hear the main mix, not by you guessing from stage.

I think at least 90% of your problems can be fixed by a better sound person. Trying other live vocal mics would also be a good idea.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

It seems as though there is never enough compression/Limiting on my voice live and that there is always tons of low end

Back off the mic and work that mic. Most of your effective "compression" will come from dynamically varying the distance to the mic with with the loudness of your vocal, and staying too close to the mic too often will - with many mics - give you too much bass from proximity effect.

G.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Back off the mic and work that mic. Most of your effective "compression" will come from dynamically varying the distance to the mic with with the loudness of your vocal, and staying too close to the mic too often will - with many mics - give you too much bass from proximity effect.

G.

I agree with working the mic, but in some live situations (e.g. 100W stack on 11 four feet behind the singer) you have to use inverse square law to maximum advantage and keep your lips ON THE GRILL and eq to compensate for proximity effect. Also, in my experience and contradicting conventional wisdom, this greatly reduces the effect of plosives. Close placement increases sensitivity to changes in distance, so working the mic requires small and precise changes in distance.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I agree with working the mic, but in some live situations (e.g. 100W stack on 11 four feet behind the singer) you have to use inverse square law to maximum advantage and keep your lips ON THE GRILL and eq to compensate for proximity effect. Also, in my experience and contradicting conventional wisdom, this greatly reduces the effect of plosives. Close placement increases sensitivity to changes in distance, so working the mic requires small and precise changes in distance.

You're absolutely right, BSG.

At the same time, I'm sure you've witnessed plenty of occasions where the singer does not work the mic at all and all the compression and mic model selection in the world isn't going to properly help them. If not, then come to Chicago, because we have plenty of those on our club circuits here . When I do work FOH, I'd much rather have someone work the mic insufficiently than not work it at all, especially if they move from whisper to scream within a couple of bars.

The OP complained that his problem was bass- or dark-heavy response combined with a lack of controlled dynamics. What I offered up was one *possible* solution that would/could explain both of those symptoms in one fell swoop, and one which I myself have witnessed many times. I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's own cautions or potential problems, nor that it's the definitive or single cause of his problems.

G.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

You're absolutely right, BSG.

As are you. Our challenge is that we can't hear or see what's really happening so we start making assumptions and offer suggestions based on them. The real answer based on the available information is "It depends."

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As are you. Our challenge is that we can't hear or see what's really happening so we start making assumptions and offer suggestions based on them. The real answer based on the available information is "It depends."

This text BBS thang can be a tough format to work in because if doesn't put enough caveats or explanations in their posts, people misinterpret it, and if they put too many in people complain that they won't read it because it's too long.

I should have started out my post with "One possibility is...".

Anyway, BSG, it's refreshing to have this discussion with an adult for a change . If you ever have a gig up in Estes Park or RMNP and need any help, I'll figure some way to make it back out there .

G.

 

[clivus]

Your existing gear is probably fine. Careful attention to low cut filters and EQ can do alot to clean up your sound. That said, I use either a Beta 57 or AKG 535EB for crisper live vocals if needed.

 

[NYMorningstar]

I always use the house/club mics which are 9 times out of 10 a shure 58.
My range is bari-tenor, though I do hit some alto notes.

I am mainly looking to sound better live and I am hoping I can just hand off a XLR send to sound guy. I was thinking either using some older rack gear I no longer use in my home studio and by buying a small mixer.

I know I'll get flack for saying this but you need to bring your own mic. The SM58's suck for what you need and more than likely add to the problem. Their polar pattern is too wide and you can't push them because they will feed back and how does that work with the booming bass, drums, etc? You need a hypercardiod pattern for loud. Try something like a Beyerdynamic TG-X 60. It's not too expensive and you can crank them.

Leave the rest up to the sound engineer. Despite some of the comments here, they know what they're doing. I wouldn't suggest bringing your own vocal soundchain because it will probably pale in comparison to some of the $20,000 sound systems you'll be playing on but whatever floats your boat. If you have a nice pre your in love with bring it but make sure you let him know ahead of time with the rest of your stage plot. Happy trails

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I know I'll get flack for saying this but you need to bring your own mic. The SM58's suck for what you need and more than likely add to the problem. Their polar pattern is too wide and you can't push them because they will feed back and how does that work with the booming bass, drums, etc? You need a hypercardiod pattern for loud. Try something like a Beyerdynamic TG-X 60. It's not too expensive and you can crank them.

Yep, here's some flack. Saying SM58s suck is a rather broad generalization that just doesn't hold true. They are better on some voices and not so good on others, but they're used by many, many national acts quite successfully. There are other options which may work better on loud stages or different voices, but SM58s don't "suck". There are tradeoffs to mics with narrower patterns, such as being more demanding of good mic technique and having a rear lobe that can be a feedback problem, and they'll also have some degree of proximity effect requiring eq.

Leave the rest up to the sound engineer. Despite some of the comments here, they know what they're doing.

Another over-generalization. It's a crap shoot who you might get in a small club. They usually can't or won't pay enough to keep good live engineers so it's more common to get a beginner or someone with limited talent than an experienced and motivated sound person. In bigger venues the trend shifts toward more skilled people as the budgets are bigger, but even there you never know. As a performer you need to learn to recognize who you're dealing with and adjust your expectations and communication accordingly. There are times when you just have to politely assert yourself and request some LF and low-mid cut on your mic.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Yep, here's some flack. Saying SM58s suck is a rather broad generalization that just doesn't hold true..

I have to disagree that I was making a broad generaliztion. I thought I was pretty specific as to why they suck; they have to wide a pattern that prevents you from cranking them (they pick up everything). Shure they're ok with most applications but they don't seem to work for the OP do they? It sounds to me like he needs more volume to compete with the rest of the band. You could ask them all to turn down but how does that work for you?

There are other options which may work better on loud stages ...

That's right and I gave him one

There are tradeoffs to mics with narrower patterns, such as being more demanding of good mic technique and having a rear lobe that can be a feedback problem, and they'll also have some degree of proximity effect requiring eq.

So learn good mic technique and take off the hat!

Another over-generalization. It's a crap shoot who you might get in a small club. They usually can't or won't pay enough to keep good live engineers so it's more common to get a beginner or someone with limited talent than an experienced and motivated sound person..

It's more a crap shoot who you'll get playing in a small club. Up here in the Northeast you'll find good engineers in our clubs mostly because they need to support themselves and families too.

In bigger venues the trend shifts toward more skilled people as the budgets are bigger, but even there you never know.

That's not the case here in NY anymore. Our good ole governor cut most of the arts out of the budget so basically there is no budget but we still have great engineers. Funny you said crap shoot because that's what I see with bands that bring their own engineers.

As a performer you need to learn to recognize who you're dealing with and adjust your expectations and communication accordingly.

This works both ways

There are times when you just have to politely assert yourself and request some LF and low-mid cut on your mic.

You should assert yourself for every soundcheck but keep in mind you are asking for your monitor mix not the FOH.

 

[dintymoore]

I use a Sennheiser 441 for my vocals at gigs. I like it because there's a treble shelving boost on it (that I always use in the boost position) and a multi position bass control. It's the only mic I've been really happy with for gigs, it's super clear and I like that you can control the bass right at the mic. I find that almost all the time if I make the controls at the mic and leave the channel eq flat that I'm way better off.

Before that, I'd used an EV N/D 757A (good mic, incredible feedback resistance but I didn't like it for my voice), an SM58 (didn't work well for me, sounded undefined) and SM57 (great as long as all you sang was Creedance).

The 441 was the only mic that gave me some sort of studio sound on stage. The down side is that they aren't real cheap, are a bit large and look like an electric shaver.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

You should assert yourself for every soundcheck but keep in mind you are asking for your monitor mix not the FOH.

You bring up a good point above. Depending on the system there are limits on what can be done in monitors, and what it sounds like on stage will be different from out front. It's a good idea to find out those limits before making requests that can't be fulfilled or will adversely affect the main mix.

At the same time it's good to know how your voice sounds on each of the more common mics and what eq adjustments are likely needed for FOH so you can give the mixer a heads up.