Live sound - dealing with criticsm

W

williamconifer

New member
*this was originially posted in Cakewalk (don't know what I was thinking)*

I know this is a bit off topic but I'm sure alot of you also mix live sound and have experienced this.

I mixed a 10 piece R&B band 2 weeks ago at an outdoor festival. 1st night, 2nd act of the night. No sound check. The head engineer got me to a "starting point" on his board and I took over. After about 8 songs I got everything dialed in. There was a compressor I didn't know about that was ducking the bass guitar and the sound company did not EQ the mains at all, So I had to hunt down some harshness around the 6k area. Screwing around with the mains eq live always makes me uneasy.

Any way I felt the mix was really good and the over all sound was really good for the 2nd half of the show. Evidently the band is very unhappy. The lead singers were in the crowd during song 4 and didn't like what they hear. And long time fans made comments on the poor sound. One person noted not hearing a specific trumpet solo, which blows my mind since I was totally on that channel during that solo. It was exactly where it should be in the mix.

Some of the complaints are justified due to the lack of sound check but others are just out of left field.

This is an age old delima. The band only hears their moniters. They take the soundman's opinion as to the sound with a grain of salt because who is going to complain about themselves. So they talk to their spouses who are just as biased or their friends and fans who all give subjective opinions. So the sound man gets shit on. I'm new with this band and fairly new mixing a live band of this size so my reputation is at risk.

What can I do (as part of my craft) to give my band an accurate representation of the sound? Obviously there needs to be a live recording done as a document. What is the best way to do this kind of recording? I'm thinking mini disk or a small portable DAW. What would work better and should I go with stereo mics or line out of the board?

any thoughts, experiances, sympathy?

thanks
Jack
 
Record your shows, on whatever you feel is easy to play back to the band(s). I always run one line from the desk and one stereo from the mix position, and balance them through a small shure mixer. Give the band a copy as a standard practise.

I'm sorry, but you won't get any sympathy from me. Reasons?
You should have figured out the system configuration well before your client's show. If there was a problem frequency, you should have told the sound company to do something about it, or you should have compensated for that in set-up before your show, especially as you apparently had the facilities to do so. Feeling uncomfortable to do that is a lack of knowledge and professionalism.
Finally - after 8 songs you felt you had the sound dialed in???? After EIGHT songs? I'm sorry but that is completely unacceptable. If you know your sound and gear, basic set-up is before the band starts. Then a minute to adjust balances, then fine-tuning and dialing in effects. That's all. And it should make you sweat untill its perfect.
 
There is room for criticism here

If you knew you would be running the sound, you should have been there to know the setup. Taking 8 songs to get dialed in is a lot of music. I run a lot of live sound, its part of my job. Never be affraid to work the eq on the mains. It isn't like you can't undo something if it doesn't work.

Now, in your defense--if it was a band you didn't know and didn't know the sound they expected you might have ended up with what you like, but not what the fans expected--that does happen. Outdoor venues can also be tough. You might have been able to hear the trumpet clear, perhaps someone off axis couldn't It could be the equipment wasn't up to the what was needed for the venue. You need a lot of power and good quality speakers to cover outside. The sound can get lost in the air.

Hopefully you will take this experience as a lesson and the next gig, go into it a little more forcefully. Be there for the setup and EQ the system yourself.
 
Kinda' off topic, but can anybody recomend any good books or websites for intermediate level lessons in live sound? I know how to do simple stuff like set up mics and plug them into the mixing board and all that crap, and I'm quite confident mixing in a studio, but I have much to learn with live sound reinforcement.
 
hey folks thanks for the ideas and comments. All really good points.

What I learned:

I should be more forcefull when using a supplied PA. (get to know the patching and make sure it's been properly eq'd for the environment.)

I got to get my dialed in sound time waay down. This was my 2nd time mixing a band of this size, so I have alot more to quickly learn.

I am setting up a portable recording rig for band critique of their performance and my mix.

I should have worked closer with the head engineer during performance to get dialed in faster.

This 10 piece band used to run sound from the stage for 1 year and then got me to change things. Long time fans may have been used to that sound so criticism may have also been that it sounded different which to many is "bad". Obviously my slow start blew the "first impression" rule.

I need to really need to focus on the freqs 2k on up to give the mix some space.

Next gig we use our own PA which is a good one and we will have time for a proper sound check.

Thanks again for all the comments.

jack
 
williamconifer said:
hey folks thanks for the ideas and comments. All really good points.

What I learned:

I should be more forcefull when using a supplied PA. (get to know the patching and make sure it's been properly eq'd for the environment.)

I got to get my dialed in sound time waay down. This was my 2nd time mixing a band of this size, so I have alot more to quickly learn.

I am setting up a portable recording rig for band critique of their performance and my mix.

I should have worked closer with the head engineer during performance to get dialed in faster.

This 10 piece band used to run sound from the stage for 1 year and then got me to change things. Long time fans may have been used to that sound so criticism may have also been that it sounded different which to many is "bad". Obviously my slow start blew the "first impression" rule.

I need to really need to focus on the freqs 2k on up to give the mix some space.

Next gig we use our own PA which is a good one and we will have time for a proper sound check.

Thanks again for all the comments.

jack
Click to expand...


I myself just got into live mixing. the first show I did everyone told me that it sounds good. so I started doing show here show there. The worst show I ever done was at a festival. It was on a console that was huge. I dont even know what kind it was. So I asked the engineer, where are the monitor controls and where are the effect sends. Then I asked him if he was running any of those comps that I saw in his rack. Once he told me that I started mixing after a 3 minute sound check. Moral of the story isssss,,, I needed a longer sound check and do to my lack of experience on that huge console,, I didnt get dialed in until maybe the 3rd song. The engineer later told me that I wasn't really the problem and that one of the main problems were the overheads for the drummer and the monitoring system. Skreeeeeech !!!! LOL

Im learning though

Malcolm
 
malcolm123 said:
I myself just got into live mixing. the first show I did everyone told me that it sounds good. so I started doing show here show there. The worst show I ever done was at a festival. It was on a console that was huge. I dont even know what kind it was. So I asked the engineer, where are the monitor controls and where are the effect sends. Then I asked him if he was running any of those comps that I saw in his rack. Once he told me that I started mixing after a 3 minute sound check. Moral of the story isssss,,, I needed a longer sound check and do to my lack of experience on that huge console,, I didnt get dialed in until maybe the 3rd song. The engineer later told me that I wasn't really the problem and that one of the main problems were the overheads for the drummer and the monitoring system. Skreeeeeech !!!! LOL

Im learning though

Malcolm
Click to expand...

One thing you might consider if you are expected to work on a surface you don't know, is to ask the system engineer to dial the sound in first, then take-over when the basic set-up has been completed. Of cause asking lots of questions and paying close attention works good as well
 
sjoko2 said:
One thing you might consider if you are expected to work on a surface you don't know, is to ask the system engineer to dial the sound in first, then take-over when the basic set-up has been completed.
Click to expand...
Amen to that. I've been there a few times.
 
Ah, soundcheck, very important. I got TOTALLY screwed last weekend. Normally the band (18 channels) uses it's own PA which is pretty nice (preset ready to go). However on this occassion we used the house PA. No big deal, I've used their system before, a mackie 24 with a big rack of stuff that's never hooked up anyway. The band I was running sound for actually tries to keep their volume fairly low so no big deal worrying about feedback on an uneq'd system. Usually my sound check is very fast, I had 2 in-ear monitor sends set roughly where they should be along with the floor monitors and effect send levels, basically ready to go except for tweaking (usually half a song)... well... 10 min before start... I say "Bass Drum"... (nothing)... "snare"... (nothing)-- the beginning of a nightmare--the last band to use the PA had unplugged the two snakes that go to the stage and an employee of the place had plugged everything back in, totally mixing everything up. Since there were two snakes there are two channel 1's ect. Even the monitors were misrouted. I couldn't believe it. It took a few minutes for me to even fully realise how badly I was fucked. I found the vocal channels and one acoustic guitar, got the monitors working and started them less than 10 min late building monitor mixes as they played and soon finding out as I went that out of 18 channels... seven were getting any signal. Soon I found myself unplugging mics from the stage snakes and plugging them into different channels hoping I'd have a signal somewhere when I got back to the board.
Then the crackling sound started... which turns out to be...

The monitor amp is going bad.

The amp problem came and went... so mostly they had floor monitors--but occassionally I'd have to turn them way down untill they stopped cracking.

I survived. That which doesn't kill the sound man makes him stronger.

The only show I've ever done that stressed me out more involved me stuck in a muddy field in the middle of nowhere, trapped by mud, all cars and most 4x4 are stuck. It's a generator show, I'm not amazingly popular because I refused to use my PA on a generator system with NO GROUND... IN THE RAIN. It was this psudo woodstock kinda thing... no cell phone service... I couldn't leave... I slept in the van with my equipment. I somehow escaped late on day two... (hours to tow the van out with my 4x4)... on the bright side I didn't get arrested like many others did that weekend and I got paid.

Hell of a way to make a living eh?
 
what about;
Time to clear the hall prior to letting the audience in (17000 seater arena), and the driver of one of the forklifts, with a flat front tire, leaves the place driving on the steel rim....... over 2 x 24 channel and 2 x 8 channel Beldon cables, feeding the audio and light consoles?

(2 hours of flat-out sorting and soldering on the floor, in the middle of the audience - the biggest ball of duckt tape ever assembled around cable......... and in those days cable had colour code, but no numbers)
 
sjoko2 said:
(2 hours of flat-out sorting and soldering on the floor, in the middle of the audience - the biggest ball of duckt tape ever assembled around cable......... and in those days cable had colour code, but no numbers)
Click to expand...

damn, I thought I've experienced some major fuck ups but you win the prize. :D

My favorite is doing mobile gigs with full lights and PA and finding out the generator has a faulty breaker halfway through the first song. "You guys want lights or sound?"
 
sjoko2 said:
what about;
Time to clear the hall prior to letting the audience in (17000 seater arena), and the driver of one of the forklifts, with a flat front tire, leaves the place driving on the steel rim....... over 2 x 24 channel and 2 x 8 channel Beldon cables, feeding the audio and light consoles?

(2 hours of flat-out sorting and soldering on the floor, in the middle of the audience - the biggest ball of duckt tape ever assembled around cable......... and in those days cable had colour code, but no numbers)
Click to expand...


You have told that one before, and I have to say that I have heard very few stories any better. I have told that to all the guys I work with around here, and NONE of them have had a better story.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
What about the Golden Earring gig in a large riding arena in Belgium?

A three phase (3 x 120amps @ 380 volts) was ready and waiting back stage, all the gear was set-up, I switched the amps of the quadraphonic PA on standby, then went on the stage and turned the bass amp on (a monster christmas tree of tubes), and the power in the whole arena went down the second I did that.

Someone turned it back on - I tried again, and the same thing happened. To make matters worse, against our instructions the promotor had opened the doors AND the bars already.

I followed the three phase cable....... outside, into a tool shed behind the arena. In the tool shed the thick cable was split-out, into three pairs of thin strands, each one going to a normal household plug.... into a 15 amp socket

No gig, promotor not to be seen again, major fight, over 100 drunken assholes against 8 roadcrew, broken gear, slashed truck tires, and me with three broken ribs and a fractured disk in my back. Major fun
 
WOW. I am so glad I am not winning the "worst sound gig from hell" award. I've had life-flight show up a couple times, and I'll never forget that time a singer put on a flame proof suit.... (always a bad sign). Out came the cans of hair-spray... But, HA, I got off easy....

That which does not kill the sound guy makes him stronger...



I think?
 
Thanks

Thanks Thanks Thanks Everyone -
For reminding me that I was right to turn down a last minute outdoor gig that would have been done mostly with rented gear and performers I don't know. I know there was a reason I had that funny feeling in my tummy when I thought about doing that one - especially since I am not as experienced as a lot of people around here think I am. Turned out it was a rain gig too.

I thank goodness that my stories seem small compared to some of the ones here...
 
ummm...last weekend, our board just completely died :10 minutes before showtime, so I had to take our monitor board (on stage) and switch it out and use only one monitor mix.

THEN, the place caught on fire, and a bunch of elves on Harleys were blocking all the exits whilst chanting in a Druid-like drone "Meat...meat...fuzzy corn...meat." I was the only one who made it out alive. Man, that sucked.

Okay, everything after the word "mix" is pretty much made up, lol.
 
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