Little Speakers being used as stage monitors

S

sindawg

New member
You guys have been so helpful in me getting my gear together and I just wanted to start out by thanking you! This site is an invaluable resource not only for the information that is provided but also due to the helpfulness of all you guys. So thanks!

In another post, I mentioned I started doing the sound for my partners celtic band. They perform in a medium size bar which already has mounted speakers. With the advice from the folks on here, I picked up a Behringer UB2222 mixer and a Crown XLS 402b power amp. Last night, the bad was getting together for a practice and I wanted to try everything out before we went back to the bar to make sure it all works. All I have to test it is a couple of regular home stereo system Olympus shelf speakers. Approx 1 ft tall. The only info it provides on the back are that they are 8 ohms.

I had a worry that putting all the intruments through those little speakers might blow them out. So I stripped the wires down a bit (typical household stereo cables, nothing like Monster Cables or anything), connected them to the back of the amps 5-way binding posts as the manual instructed I could do, turned everything on and just put the keyboard through first. No prob. After a bit, I added an acoustic guitar. Fine. Then a 2nd guitar. Fine. Then a mic. Fine.

Granted, I wasn't blaring these things and certainly not peaking them (amp was turn on about 1/4 - 1/3 of full pull) but with 2 guitars, a djembe, tin whistles and a keyboard all playing and someone singing (all going through the mixer except the tin whistes and djembe) just the instruments along create quite a loud noise but everyone was able to hear through the speakers. Which I was quite amazed by because these are so small.

The level we were running at is pretty damn near what I run the board at with the FOH bar speakers at during a show. The room we were in at the house was (just a guess and I'm horrible with guessing measurements and age) maybe 10 x 20 w/ hardwood floors.

I know that obviously you dont need huge speakers to fill that small of a space but, here is my actual question (I know, FINALLY! right? hehe)...

Since the band doesn't have any onstage monitors to hear themselves with, do you think these little shelf speakers will hold up ok as onstage monitors for the band? The back of the amp has Speakon outputs which will be used for the house speakers and then these little guys would just be attached to the 5-way binding posts, one for each side.

I guess my concerns are:
1.) During the show, we mic the djembe and I'm worried the low frequencies running through these speakers, even as monitors might effect them.

2.) Wasn't sure if i could use the binding posts at the same time I use the Speakon cable outputs

3.) Will the typical home stereo wiring cause any issues? Unfortunately these are the type of speakers where the wire is hard wired into the speaker box and can't be removed without disassembling the speaker box.

Give me your thoughts if you will. :)
 
Well, PA stuff is PA stuff.
I wouldn't recommend using Hi-Fi stuff as PA stuff, even if it's only for stage monitors. Get some nice Pulse stage monitors by Yorkville, you'll be glad you did in the long run.
 
Yes I totally understand and agree with that. PA stuff is PA stuff.

In the long run, they will spring for getting real monitors. But, the money is not there right now to spend $250 per monitor for the Yorkville's.

The band is still needing to perform though, until what is needed can be purchased. So my question really is, in the meanwhile, are there concerns which stand out which would prevent me from using the speakers I have until pro monitors can be purchased?
 
1.) During the show, we mic the djembe and I'm worried the low frequencies running through these speakers, even as monitors might effect them.
Click to expand...

Yes I would be worried too.

2.) Wasn't sure if i could use the binding posts at the same time I use the Speakon cable outputs
Click to expand...

You can, those outputs are parallel to the speakon outputs, but the volume between the pa speakers you will be using and these little things are going to be grossly mismatched. Better option would be to run the mains mono off of one side of the amp, and the little speakers off the other side of the amp. Also this way you could get an eq (if you have one availible) to eq out all the low end that would be going to the little speakers to protect them from the djembe. Yet a better solution would be get some PA floor monitors, but ya gotta do what you gotta do sometimes.....maybe even look into renting monitors for the shows???

3.) Will the typical home stereo wiring cause any issues? Unfortunately these are the type of speakers where the wire is hard wired into the speaker box and can't be removed without disassembling the speaker box.
Click to expand...

Should work just fine, wire might get a little hot because the guage is probably pretty small, but I wouldn't worry about it to much.
 
sindawg said:
Yes I totally understand and agree with that. PA stuff is PA stuff.

In the long run, they will spring for getting real monitors. But, the money is not there right now to spend $250 per monitor for the Yorkville's.

The band is still needing to perform though, until what is needed can be purchased. So my question really is, in the meanwhile, are there concerns which stand out which would prevent me from using the speakers I have until pro monitors can be purchased?
Click to expand...
Rent some monitors for your shows then.
Seriously, aren't there any PA systems where you are playing?
If you are obliged to supply the PA system, then I'd seriously look at renting or borrowing stage monitors.
 
Running off the binding posts and the speakon at the same time will be like running two speakers in parrallel, and so you'll have to be aware that the total impedance of the speaker circut will be lowered (basic electronics).

Also, when you're running monitors, you should really have them on a seperate send to the FOH PA.
Monitors require a totally different approach (mix/effects/eq) than the FOH send. If you send the FOH mix through the wedges, then yes- you will have to worry aobut feedback.

Finally, whilst using home gear isn't the best option, and yes, they will blow out faster than an actaul stage wedge, you live with what you've got. If you need wedges, but don't have the budget to hire/buy them, then sure, blow up your home speakers whilst you're saving your pennies. But, in the long term, you're going to need professional wedges.
 
Thanks guys, it certainly helps.

And yes, I agree with you all that I would much rather have real floor monitors rather then home stereo stuff. But, I just dropped $900 on the mixer, case, amp and some cables as well as a keyboard so, just dont have anything to spare right now. And if these little speakers blow, then they blow, no biggie.

But good option I didn't think about before, as far as renting some. I'll look into it. One place we play does have a monitor which will be nice but the other place where we play regularly does not. Pretty much a bar who has a band in once a month and aside from having their own powered mixer and a couple of ceiling mounted speakers, they dont have any floor monitors.

Apperantly they have a couple speakers mounted in the back of the bar but our guitarist said they went out not too long ago. He said he used to be able to hear himself from those. And of course talking to the bar tenders is like asking someone from the street if they know what happen. They have no clue.

But, I've got the main gear to get us up and running on our own and thats good. Our guitarist has offered to buy some monitors but I dont think he's wanting to spend more then $150 and I think we'll need two. One for the front 3 people (2 guitarists and a tin whistler) and one for the back gang (djembe player, keyboardist and fiddlist).

I went to guitar center to see what they had but it seemed like all they had was guitar amps. I didn't seem to see any monitors, well, except some that were like $400 a piece.

And if I remember correctly from reading one of the other posts, you dont wanna use a quitar amp as a monitor because it can't reproduce vocals or bass very well right? Hence why its a GUITAR amp.
 
yeah, wedges and guitar amps are like apples and oranges... I wouldn't be using them for wedges.

You mentioned that the other bar has a powered mixer, and you have an amp. Why not run the monitor send out of your desk, into the powered mixer, then run some unpowered wedges off that?

But, as I said before, you do what you can. I've seen a lot of small bands get away with some really odd things, as well as some big bands.

(Start Anecdote)
I was running systems for a gig where Coco Rosie were there support act. They flew out from germany about 14 hours before the show, and their drumkit didn't.
They went around the corner and bought a AUD$150 kid's drumkit (they were mainly using only the kick/snare/HH).
With a bit of clever mic placement, compression and EQ, it sounded great..
Yes, it was going through top-of-the line gear, but it sounded jsut as good at the "high-end" kick drum the main act was using (a Tama I believe).

Admitedly, Coco Rosie's music isn't exactly "normal" to begin with, but there's an example of less-than-pro gear being used on a pro gig (2000 seat venue @ AUD$90 a ticket...)
(/end aneccdote)
 
Someone else had suggested using the bars powered mixer to run MY mixer through before I had bought the amp but the problem with that is space.

Man, I wish I had a picture of this setup. The area where the band plays is a raised platform. On this platform, all the rest of the time, are a couple tables and a few chairs. Its a seating area. Its in a corner and its maybe 7 ft long at the front of the stage and7 ft deep (guessng.) And with the amount of people and instruments they have, it takes up every square foot. There is no dedicated sound board area except "where they always put it" ontop of a wood barrel about 2 feet off the stage and directly under one of the house speakers. The mixer takes up the entire top of this "barrel" so it doesn't leave any room to have a second mixer laying around, unforturnatly. But, I'll try and see if maybe somewhere on stage, ontop of a instrument case or something I can put the monitor mixer. If its onstage then atleast tehy can control that voume.

I'll look into that. :)
 
You asked three questions:

1.) During the show, we mic the djembe and I'm worried the low frequencies running through these speakers, even as monitors might effect them.

2.) Wasn't sure if i could use the binding posts at the same time I use the Speakon cable outputs

3.) Will the typical home stereo wiring cause any issues? Unfortunately these are the type of speakers where the wire is hard wired into the speaker box and can't be removed without disassembling the speaker box.

1 Whether or not these speakers will prove satisfactory will depend on what power they can handle. Perhaps they may not be able to handle the djembe bottom end, so perhaps they don't need to; it should have plenty of on-stage volume all by itself. Others have noted the possibility that you may end up with blown speakers. This depends on how excited they get on the night and how hard they want the foldback driven.

2 You can use both. If FOH and foldback speakers are both around 8 ohms, you are connceting them in parallel, so that amp is seeing 4 ohms, which is probably ok these days.

3 No. As someone said, it may get a bit hot.

Having been following your pursuits with great interest, I might venture a couple of observations:

1 It seems, from how you describe your set-up, that you will be providing a foldback mix the same as the front of house mix. Left and Right of amp will be delivering the same signal to foldback and FOH. You can probably get by with this for a while, but in the end you may find it unsatisfactory: there will come a time when you want to change FOH without affecting foldback and vice versa.

The two ways of doing this are: use one channel of amp to drive FOH speakers, and the other to drive foldback, which means sending the main mix to one channel, and setting up and sending an aux mix (i.e. the foldback mix) to the other. The other way is to use the house desk for FOH (because it is already set up for that), with you feeding your main mix to it, while you send a foldback mix through your amp for the foldback.

There are probably other set-ups that will work fine also.

2 You have invested a fair bit of your own time and money into this. I was wondering how you were going to recoup this? Perhaps you are doing it just for the love and experience! In my days of band playing, we didn't own our own PA. Sometimes there was a PA in the venue, but most often we had to supply it, which we did by hiring. Any money we made had to pay for the gear as well, and sometimes, a sound guy, if the nature of the job required that investment. I don't know the relationship you have with the band, but I hope that they recognise the significance of your investment!

I don't know about the bar venues where you are, but here they tend to be a bit miserly, so it can be difficult to get money off them to pay for band and PA. On the other hand, some of our bar venues here are realising the value of decent sound, and have invested considerable sums in a house system (including foldback).
in
 
The Dwed: Yes, its a bit of an unconventional Celtic band. ww.servantsoftherich.com

Gecko: I tell you, you are one of the ones that has continued to amaze me by your thorough yet simple explinations towards my questions. And I thank you for that.

To answer your questions....

1.) Yes, I was just going to send them the same feed as the FOH speakers through the little speakers I have. Although the more people have explained to me, and the more I understand, the monitor mix needs to be differant then the FOH. I understand your explination clearly and will try that. I think at the next gig, I'm going to take some pics of the venue as well as the "setup". Their deck is stored in the back office until we need it then we pull it out & hook it up to the speakers. But your suggestion sounds perfectly clear and I think that would work for now.

2.) As far as me recouping anything? I actually didn't get into this hornet's nest with the idea of reouping anything. As it is now, 1/2 of the band is just in it for the fun of performing. The other 1/2, including my partner, have more serious musical careers in mind and view this band as a good jumping off point.

I entered into the group exculsively due to proximaty to a problem. The needed someone who could hook up a sound board, i work in radio and had accompanied my partner to the bar to watch them perform and was having a drink. Next thing I know I'm hooking up the board and just watching the levels throughout the show to keep ME entertained. And its continued to from there.

Now, we could easily just have continued using the bars board but I wanted to get to learn it better and what it could do and how to give them the best sound possible and i knew just seeing the board once a month wasn't going to do it. I had received a bonus from my real world job so I thought "Why not buy a board I can be around all the time, get to know it inside and out and use that one instead." I also thought the board would come in handy away from the shows as well for my partner as he's trying to get a musical career off the ground. So, I saw it as an investiment for his career as well as a way I could get better doing something for the band that they appreciated.

Granted, as always, its ended up costing more then I expected but to be honest, I'm ok with that. And I know it'll cost a little more as well but I'll have to take baby steps until I reach that point. As far as the monitors go, one of the bands guitarists has offered to buy those but I think he was thinking they'd be more about $50 a piece. :) I'll try and educate him a little more as I get more educated.

Right now, the band is just thrilled to have someone watching out for them, keeping an eye on levels and during their live shows, we've included some of the effects from the board on either the guitar or the whistles that add something even more that they coudl not have done by just "setting a board and walking away". So, even if everything I'm doing is not text book "You have to do a live show this way"... they have all been very gracious to tell me how happy they are to have someone doing sound.

From everything I've learned on here, it really makes me want to take some coarses on sound engineering though! I jsut wonder though, for those of you who have been in it for years... do you find you've leanred more in doing it in the real world then you did in school? I never went to school to be a radio DJ. It started out as an internship which worked into a fulltime job and I've been doing it for 9 years now. I kinda laugh at people who say they wanna go to school for it because, now a days, Dj's are nothing more then talking monkeys that can push a few buttons now a days. We have engineers to do all the complicated things. And I also work in Insurance as a Claims Adjusters. Again, it was all "on the job training" but some people actualyl go to college for it (god I couldn't imagine!).

Anyways, I'm just typing now so I need to stop myself. :)
 
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