Lexicon MX200 vs TC M1

Middleman

Professional Amateur
Man, I should just go in the review business with all the new gear I have been playing with lately.

Tonight I spent a couple of hours playing with the Lexicon MX200, the new VST based external, dual effects processor. In the other corner was my veritable go-to-device the TC Electronics M-One, not the XL version but the earlier version.

I have mixed feelings about the Lexicon; let me say that up front.

The controls are handy and it's much easier with the Lexicon getting into the individual engines for tweaking, this I liked a lot. Even though the front LCD panel is not as fancy as the TC, I liked the MPX200's simplicity and found it very functional and fast to dial in the sound you are searching for.

The tempo button is in a handy spot as is the bypass. I loved having a decay knob instead of punching through menus on the TC. In fact, I loved having all the knobs on the MX200 instead of the multi levels of menus and numerous flat buttons. It was just faster and, if you are visually impaired, like I am, things just go faster when trying to dial in a sound on the Lexicon unit.

It all comes down to the sound. I was looking for an alternative processor to the M-one and that's what caught my eye about the MX200. At its $199 price, I thought if the sounds were even marginally usable this might be a low cost approach.

This is where the mixed feelings come into play. The TC stands out more distinctly against a mix or individual tracks, let me state that first. It's darker, deeper in sound almost across the board in presets but I only compared factory default sounds in each unit. I tried drum rooms, halls, vocal plates and did not actually try and tweak them with exact parameters of predelay. Just the stock sounds with no attempt at matching except the names of their presets. Not scientific but it was getting late in the day.

The Lexicon was much brighter and thinner sounding which is characteristic of other Lex models I have heard under $500. It does sound smoother but almost sizzling smoother which for some things gets annoying. For many things however, it fit with the mix quicker than the TC. Then there is the phasing....

Almost every preset sounded like it was phasing along with the dry vocal. I am was not sure if this was intentional but I had the knobs turned all the way to wet. This was SPDIF by the way; I did not hook up the analog jacks. There was another user who complained that he hated the sound and I had to agree, this sound was not good. However, there was light at the end of the tunnel and I am sure the other reviewer did not find the routing setting which exists in the utility menu which partially alleviates the phasing sound.

One of the Lexi people on the other thread mentioned going into the utility menu and setting the default engine path to parallel and so I thought I would give that a go. This turned out to be the ticket and suddenly I had good separation from the dry track however, as I dialed through the various presets, the phasing kept coming back. I notice that the engine routing button would still continue to change to different engine routings so I assumed the global setting for wet is not so global and you need to tweak individual presets to keep the phasing monster away. My theory is that this is the result of a delayed signal from the original track against a slightly delayed SPDIF return. This really was rather annoying.

Let me say however, that when it worked as 100% wet, the sounds of the presets synthesized with the mix better than the TC. This was promising. Overall I really liked the sound of the MX200 and it does deliver on a different color of reverb, delays, chorusing and many other effects. It was much easier to get workable results on this unit vs. the amount of work I have to do on the TC. The two actually contrast each other very favorably; the TC being deeper in sound and the Lexicon brighter but not harsh like the plug in versions of their software.

Will I keep the unit? I am not sure at this point. I would like the Lexicon people to comment on the phasing sound while using SPDIF. Perhaps I still have something set wrong. There was not a deep explanation of all the Utility menu settings so this may be operator inexperience.

By the way, the software is handy. A prebuilt midi based interface to control the box. This worked flawlessly with Sonar 4.0.3.
 
Middleman said:
Will I keep the unit? I am not sure at this point. I would like the Lexicon people to comment on the phasing sound while using SPDIF. Perhaps I still have something set wrong. There was not a deep explanation of all the Utility menu settings so this may be operator inexperience.
.

Well, at least you can make it work on a per-program basis, but still annoying. I've been noticing some shit like that with certain processors, where if a dry vocal is brought up next to the processed one, you get phasing. A little track nudging takes care of it, but it makes doing some things live impossible (I do lots of live work). I have an old MPX500, never noticed it with that piece.

Good head-to-head review, nice and balanced, pointing out the strengths and drawbacks of each piece.

Timely for me, too, as I am contemplating a new reverb, and the M-One is on my list.

Thanks for putting in the time.
 
There has to be a global wet/dry mix setting somewhere. I'm sure if you find that parameter and set it to 100% wet you won't have any problem with phasing. *Any* processor that has some dry signal going through and laying back to the original track will have phasing.
 
This is how you prevent 'phasing'...

Set Lexi to 100% wet, and you MUST use latency compensation in your DAW. (Assuming this is what you were referring to.)

Cubase/Nuendo have a 'set latency' button on the external effects bus.

I have hear NO phasing when doing this.

If you meant something else... carry on... ;)
 
turnitdown said:
... and you MUST use latency compensation in your DAW. ;)
I doubt that latency is an issue in this case assuming a) you're not passing the direct signle through the box (which is likely the issue here), and b) you don't mind a few extra ms's added on to your effects time settings.
(I wouldn't take Lexi's time' values on face value either not that that has anything to do with it. ...wink wink, nod nod. ;) :D
Wayne
 
Sonar has automatic latency compensation so it takes care of that. :D

I spent some more hours on this puppy this AM. Things are looking dramatically up. To eliminate the phasing you must use the software plugin interface in Sonar, then the phasing goes away, for the most part. Must be the auto delay compensation. I noticed that some of the settings still change the wet/dry mix on one or both of the engines as you move through the presets. This is where potential phasing comes into play.

Word to the wise, when auditioning this device don't skip playing with the software to get a quick idea of the sound of the unit. If you do then you will be cast into phasing hell. It's not a fair evaluation of the product. You need to install the plug in interface. If you do the delay compensation thing, for those who need it, or if you have Sonar, just let it do it's thing. The delay compensation took care of most of the phasing. If you see the wet dry mix knobs change then you can also play with these if it gets out of hand.

I installed the software last night but just did not play with it enough and started turned knobs instead. The software is the show. One comment is that you can only run 1 instance of the plug in. If your thinking of trying to use multiple instances with various sound settings, this won't do that. You can record your results however and group your reverbs into audio tracks. This is a standard practice in big studios anyway, if you follow the ProTools guidlines for storing and transfering mixes. These guidlines are out there on the web somewhere.

The whole MX200 experience just went up dramatically. It's a keeper. Installing it in the rack right now. Some really great sounding tones are in the box. At $199 its a little bit of sonic heaven for a decent price.
 
I doubt that latency is an issue in this case assuming a) you're not passing the direct signle through the box (which is likely the issue here), and b) you don't mind a few extra ms's added on to your effects time settings.
(I wouldn't take Lexi's time' values on face value either not that that has anything to do with it. ...wink wink, nod nod.
Wayne

My DAW Software sets the external effect latency at .77ms when bussing out to the Lexicon. (Lexicon makes no claims, and there is no setting on the unit)
And you most certainly are passing direct signal through the box. It's NOT a software plugin.

Unless I am just completely misunderstanding you... :D
 
turnitdown I posted then you posted. You were right. Using the plugin instead of the knobs while attached to a DAW almost eliminates the phasing. See above.
 
Cool... I really like the unit.... ESPECIALLY for the money, but even if $$ weren't an issue... It's very cool being able to tweak and store evenything in software...

Now, if only the physical knobs turned when you changed software settings!!! Like flying faders on my MCU!!!

(I like how software knobs turn when you move the physical knobs though... ;)
 
turnitdown said:
Now, if only the physical knobs turned when you changed software settings!!! Like flying faders on my MCU!!!

That would be cool. Anyone remember that Soldano guitar preamp with the motorized knobs? It had a midi footboard. When you changed presets, the knobs moved in realtime to change the preamp settings.

Wicked. :)
 
turnitdown said:
My DAW Software sets the external effect latency at .77ms when bussing out to the Lexicon. (Lexicon makes no claims, and there is no setting on the unit)
And you most certainly are passing direct signal through the box. It's NOT a software plugin.

Unless I am just completely misunderstanding you... :D
Nah. I was just going on the idea of getting it to stay in the 100% wet mode so it wouldn't matter.
On delay comp for external boxes, I never could figure how the daw software woud know how much time the box was taking to do a task.
Wayne
 
I never could figure how the daw software woud know how much time the box was taking to do a task.
Wayne
The DAW simply "pings" a signal, and measures the latency (or time) it takes to receive the signal back. Kind of like a computer 'ping', if you're into networking at all.
 
If you have the MX200 set to 100% wet, you don't need to use the latency compensation feature. At the wet setting, there should be no phasing at all because you aren't putting dry signal through the box. Phasing only occurs when dry signal is put through the box and is fed back into the channel with original dry signal.

Is there a global wet/dry setting that overrides the wet/dry settings in the presets?
 
I couldn't hear any phasing issues either way.... But I always had my mix set 100% wet.
BUT, not using DAW compensation, there is still that theoretical .77 ms delay, though I doubt anyone could hear that.... :D

I can't think of any application where a .77ms delay would be an issue....

And I think there is a global setting for mix.... but I am not 100% sure.
 
If you are using analog connections the 100% wet setting should correct the problem. However, using SPDIF it didn't work on the unit I have. If you just connect the unit up to your sound card, using SPDIF, and run a signal in and back, the phasing is apparent, even with the knobs turned to 100% wet.

After I put their plug in on a track, whatever causes phasing was gone. I assume some internal routing of the engines sends the dry signal through the unit even when the knobs are on 100% wet when using SPDIF. I don't know why this is. But when the software takes charge (delay comp kicks in on the plug in), or you manually reset the engines for parallel, the problem is gone.

As you dial through the presets the parallel engine setting changes however, you can start out without the phasing but if you go to a new preset, depending on how that preset changes the routing, the phasing can come back. This is all without using their software interface.

I do not have this problem when I run my TC Electronics box.
 
Yeah, I am using analog connections... I don't have spdif.... maybe that's the difference.
Good luck w/ it...
 
SPDIF or analog really shouldn't matter if the box is set to 100% wet. I wonder if there is a different setting for the digital I/O? Odd that the phasing disappears when the plugin is being used on a track in conjunction with the digital I/O.

Something doesn't seem quite right with the behaviour you describe Middleman, regarding auditioning presets and needing to switch to parallel mode. Seems like there might be a master setting somewhere that needs adjusting or maybe there's a little bug somewhere.
 
Middleman said:
... I assume some internal routing of the engines sends the dry signal through the unit even when the knobs are on 100% wet when using SPDIF..
Even some verb combo patches have mixes of short delays in as 'spreader/width' effects. (Lex does that a lot.) If the phasing is modulating, that would be a dead give a way. Maybe?
Wayne
 
Spent the rest of the day getting this baby fine tuned.

Life is good here in the future. I have my TC wired analog but controlled by a midi track in my sequencer which has all of its presets in pull down menus. Next I have the MX200 controlled from the Lexi plug in on its own buss routed SPDIF.

Put the TC on ambient/snare, run most of the instruments through this box. Put the vocal through the Lexicon, nice vocal setting. Dude I sound like a real studio. :p

I love it when a plan comes together. Seriously I'm loving this MX200.
 
I downloaded the manual for the MX200, and the patches are organized into two banks: parallel and serial. Parallel presets shouldn't have the phasing when used in a send/return loop, but serial presets will. Is that how it has worked out for you, or are you getting the phasing on presets in the parallel bank as well?

I didn't read every word in the manual, but i wasn't able to find a global wet/dry mix setting. I'd hate to think it doesn't have a way to globally set that parameter, but I might have just missed it.
 
Back
Top