Levels problem

D

DaveX

New member
First off, let me say that it has been awhile since I have been an active member of Home Recording... I sort of got burned out last year, around about the time people were discussing a compilation cd. Now a list serv that I am on is discussing a similar project, and it got me thinking about this list again, so I'm back. And I have more questions, as usual, they will probably be a little strange.

I just released my second album (self-release) and I had some trouble with levels. I work with a Roland VS-880EX, and I record a wide variety of instruments, environmental sounds, etc. When I record, I always try to set my gain as high as possible, without digital distortion being present. But I sometimes have a hard time mixing the elements together and keeping a good sound at the end. I noticed that some of my recordings were much lower than others, and I really didn't have any good ways to boost them, which necessitated some MacGyver manuevers I would rather not have to repeat in the future. Can someone explain to me how to work with my levels, especially someone who realizes that I am mainly working with the VS-880EX and not having access to much outboard gear like mixing boards, etc..?

I'd be much obliged.

DaveX
 
Two causes for low levels come to mind. First would be not getting full record levels on those tracks, but it sounds like your aware of that.
The other would be the peak to average ratio of the various tracks. Sounds with rather constant, smooth levels recorded to maximum level will sound gererally louder to the ear than sounds with large transients in them. Mixing a track of sustained organ with one of a slaming piano part for example, both recorded at full scale, the organ might need to be pulled back a bit. The other way to get the peaky sounds (or whole mixes) to be louder is to compress them. Your recorder has a tremendous dynamic range, but our ears have been accustomed to hearing most everything recorded very compressed.
Hope that helps some.

p.s. You mentioned recording environmental sounds. Made me rember being at the foot of the Pacific Coast trail some time ago. We were crossing the S.P. tracks there, enjoying the quiet of the Sierra mountain side when this freight train came rolling through. That was one contrast I would love to get on 24 bit! We could climb up on the signal trussle and record the train from about four feet above, but they'd probably arrest our asses!:D
See ya.
 
I am sure that the VS usit has some type of on board dynamic processors. You could try compressing some of the instruments that are a bit overly dynamic. It is better to do that WHILE tracking though, as the Roland unit probably doesn't offer a very good algorhythm for compression at it's price tag.

Shailat has a pretty good article on compression, with audio examples, on his webpage at:

http://www.geocities.com/shailat2000

As far as levels from song to song, that is something that happens naturally between songs with different instrumentation and production approaches. Mastering the songs after mixing can help bring them all together in relative level and equalisation. If you do not have the means to master on your own, you will need to pay someone to do that for you. There are a few on this BBS that offer CD mastering and that might be a good place to start. Or, you can try your luck with somebody local to you.

Ed
 
mastering

How does one go about mastering? I am very interested in this, and I am curious how it is acheived.

DaveX
 
Easy, you open up the yellow pages... look under Recording Services... find a listing for Mastering Facilities....

Hop in your car, taxi or bus and bring your material over to them...

A few days (maybe a couple of weeks) later, you'll get a mastered version of your stuff in the format of your choice!

Couldn't be simpler than that!!! ;)

Bruce
 
Blue Bear Sound said:


A few days (maybe a couple of weeks) later, you'll get a mastered version of your stuff in the format of your choice!

Couldn't be simpler than that!!! ;)

Bruce
Click to expand...

Damn Bruce, I could get it down faster than a couple of weeks including the time for shipping the tapes back and forth!!! You better start sending your stuff to me so you can get it back to the client a bit faster eh? ;)

DaveX. It is true that you can find studios that either specialize in CD mastering, or studios that offer that service with other recording services. You will find that the studios that specialize in it will be more expensive, but probably better at it.

It pays to check around and ask other bands that have paid for mastering services locally before turning over anything to a mastering studio and paying them. Whoever you decide to have master your material, you should request a "before and after" example of their work. Examples of a variety of "qualities" of original mixes is a better indication too. As sjoko2 told me once in an email, "it is easy to make a bad mix sound better in mastering", and I think that is true. If you mixes are not all that hot, well, just about any mastering house can improve it. If your mixes are decent, the mastering engineer will need more skills and experience to make an improvement. If you mixes are GREAT, the mastering engineer will not only need skills and experience, but also VERY GOOD GEAR to make an improvement, and those improvements will not seem very drastic by any measure.

There are different approaches to mastering. Some people strive to preserve the overall sonic characteristics of your original mix, while other may try to brow beat that mix into something else. Sometimes it is something inbetween. A good mastering engineer can be very helpful in helping your determine what is best, and more importantly, what is POSSIBLE with your mixes. Picking the right mastering engineer to work on your stuff I think is important. You are trusting their ears and skills wholly!

I offer CD mastering. Rates vary, but are on the low side of things. Anywhere from $25-$50 an hour depending on your project and what it will entail and how picky you want to be. sjoko2 would be considered on the more "expensive" end of things, but, much higher price also assures you of a damn fine sounding product in the end. His rates around around $2000 for a full length CD. There are many mastering house that are right inbetween those two prices too, around $100 an hour. Which is best for your project depends on a number of things. But your BUDGET will dictate which end you will work at.

A little side note. Don't let cheap OR expensive price fool you into thinking the cheap guy might not be that good, or the expensive guy will be that great, or that the inbetween guy will be average. It is not so. I have stolen MANY mastering jobs from bands at my price because they didn't feel they could get it done any better at even $100 an hour at the average local mastering house. Like any other part of music production, it really comes down to the skills of the engineer. A guy like me doesn't have the most KILLER tools to work with, but I know how to get the most out of what I have. Some people have far more money than talent (I am talking about engineers) and put together great little studios, but can't match the quality of sound a good engineer can do with lesser gear.

So, make sure you hear work done by whoever you pay to master your material. You need before and after examples or varying quality levels or original mixes to accurately ascertain what that engineer can do with you. Also, make sure to ask how much time was spent on any example they play you. It is not good to hear improved results on something if the guy spent many hours on just one song, and your whole budget for mastering only allows you a few hours to do it. You dig what I am saying here? :)

Ed
 
sheesh

PEOPLE-- THIS IS HOME RECORDING.

Get that? HOME RECORDING.

I'm repeating this so you get the idea that some of us try to do these things AT HOME, without the benefit of sending my music elsewhere. I could record in a studio elsewhere, or hire other people to make my music for me, or really I could just purchase CDs from a store and not make music at all!

But I AM making my own music, trying to do it correctly in a home studio, and I would like to try mastering the stuff as well, cause I can see that this is going to start to be necessary.

So I am asking how one approaches mastering. How is it done? What tools are used? What are the goals?

DaveX
 
Maybe you should work on tracking and mixing better. Mastering is by and far the hardest aspect of the production process I have had to learn. It is VERY easy to mess it up and make things sound worse. I have also found that the better things are tracked and mixed, mastering starts making LESS of a difference in the final outcome. I would say that a lot of the finest sounding stuff you hear on major label releases have no more than a dB or two of eq and/or compression.

There is MUCH you can learn about tracking and mixing better, and these are precursors to doing effective mastering.

You not know what you ask right now.....:)

Ed
 
Re: sheesh

DaveX said:
PEOPLE-- THIS IS HOME RECORDING.

Get that? HOME RECORDING.
Click to expand...
Home recording version??? OK... you master by running your final mix thru an Alesis nanocompressor, followed by a couple of those Boss guitar EQ pedals......

There... feel better??? :rolleyes:

Yes, this is HomeRecording - and a number of pros hang out here (like Ed/sonusman, Sjoko2, Shailat, Skippy) that freely pass on their information and experience to help home recordings NOT SOUND like home recordings.

And Ed's advice is right on the money.....


Bruce
 
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double sheesh

I say "home recording" cause there is a difference between wanting to know HOW to do something versus wanting a freakin' Yellow Pages listing for someone to do it for me.

I mean, no shit, of course I could pay someone to master my stuff. Duh.

Does anyone need to be on a bulletin board to be told that?

DaveX
 
OK............. in fairness, I'm being snarky 'cos because many people dismiss mastering as easily handled by a couple of plug-ins without regard for the mastering engineer's art....

But... that being said... a recent editorial pointed out a good distinction on the definitions of mastering, and I agree with their perspective.

"Mastering" itself is the process of tweaking, balancing, and packaging a series of final mixes into a cohesive collection of mixes as a body of work. This can be as simple as balancing levels and adjusting EQ for consistency.

"Professional Mastering" is different from the basic process in the level of skill the mastering engineer factored-in and the calibre of the tools/gear at the engineer's disposal. The engineer has the ears and monitoring system that allows them to quickly judge any areas of your mix that can be improved, and further, has enough experience to decide whether the mix needs any polish or not!

But anyways, Ed made very good points above about the concept of professional mastering, so I needn't go into here... but as far as what you CAN do on your own - you want to have your series of mixes maintain a consistent level of frequency response from track to track, real-life levels (the slow ballad should not be at the same volume as the previous hard-rocking tune), and setup even spacing between cuts as well as appropriate fade-ins and outs. You can use compression to help smooth out some peaks, but I'd avoid the current practice of overcompressing to the point that the meters never move after the song starts - it is not musical, and causes ear fatigue after only a few minutes listening. The key to any post-mix "tweaking" is extreme moderation - if you're finding you need to EQ more than 1-2db in areas, you have to look at your mix itself instead of a mastering "fix-up". Same goes for compression - low ratios, light thresholds....

Without more sophisticated gear, that is as much polishing as you will be able to do on your own. If you treat the mastering phase as a place for post-mix fix-up, then you really do need the resources of a professional mastering facility.

As Ed said, paying attention to your tracking and mixing alleviates much of the need for DIY mastering in the first place.... so before looking at mastering - examine what you could have done to your mixes in the previous production stages.

Hope this helps...

Bruce
 
Wha?

You mean no one here can tell me in 50 words or less how to master my albums?! lol

Bruce...sent you an email a few weeks back. Did you get it?
 
Oh hey Vance...

Yup... got it! Thought I had answered it, but I just checked and it was still sitting in my outbox! Sorry.......! :(

The last few weeks have been pretty hairy for me!!!!!! I've seen your site before - very cool... how's the music scene in the Maritimes? Is it true that there are more fiddler session players out there than guitar session players? ;) :)

BTW, my mom's computer (a solid 386 with 256K of ram) is all hooked up with my SoundBlaster game card... any mastering tips for me???

:D :D :D

Bruce
 
How old is you mum?
What is her cup size?
Is she fit?

if you answer those questions I might give you some recommendations for mastering her.

ehhhhhh am I in the right forum?
 
I hate to tell all you old mislead fools, but is doesnt matter how you track. It doesnt matter how you mix. It doesnt matter what equipment you use. It doesnt matter how you master. As long as you do it all through a Behringer product, the end result will be fantastic and at commercial grade levels every time. Sheesh, guys, when are you gonna learn. B-E-H-R-I-N-G-E-R!
I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks, huh? ;)
 
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