LD condensor --- options-- newbie -- confused -- help!

P

Picker

New member
Ok… so now I’m confused

I’m just getting into recording and here’s what I’m using so far.

P4 2.6 ghz
Seagate 7200 rpm 120 gig HDD
1 gig ram
Event TR8XL monitors
Cakewalk Sonar 2.2

Mics:
Shure SM58
Shure SM57
Sennheiser e855

The next thing I think I need will be a LD condenser mic for vocals etc. I’ve been reading up on different mics here and elsewhere, and of course have become increasingly confused by the variety and options available. My thinking was that variable polar patters would be nice to have for flexibility without having to buy eight different microphones for different applications. Also, I would like the best quality I can get (I believe in having good equipment), but cannot afford too much -- $500 would be good, certainly not over $1,000).

This all has led me to a few different options.

AT 4050 – has gotten some good reviews and has 3 polar patterns (omni, cardioid, and fig.8). $500 new
AKG414BULS – $849 new more expensive, but can get for $500 or $600 on ebay used.
AKG C414BTLII $999 Transformerless Version of C414BULS --- not sure what this means but its $150 more than the BULS model.
Neumann TLM103 -- $830 getting to high end of price range and cardioid only, but highly thought of.
Or, I could get a good studio projects LD mic for $300 and a pair of Oktavia 012s for about $100 each.

Anyway, what would you suggest as the best path for my home studio. Right now, I’m kinda leaning towards the AT4050 or the used AKG. Any suggestions? Comments? Cautions? Will I regret going with the less expensive solutions? Am I better off getting a good mic that specializes in one polar pattern, or is it good to get the flexibility of the AT4050 or AKG414.

Other recommendations?

thanks
 
Most of the time you'll most likely use the cardioid pattern for recording a vocalist. As for which mic would be best for you... I don't know and either does anyone else... you'll need to audition the mic's for yourself to find out.
 
I guess the main problem is limited ability to aduition. I don't think I will have much of a chance to audition in the store and the CD would only give me an idea of what that singer/music sounds like.

Second, I will probably want the mic to be flexable because I will want to use it for many applications as it will be my only mic (other than the ones already listed) for the time being.

Although I know this type of question is difficult to answer and you certainly cant tell me what is the best mic for me, but any advice would be appreciated. Is my thinking of the multi patters sound (so to speak)? Does this sound like a good place to start? Is this the best place to put my hard earned $?
 
We need to know if you have a preamp with phantom power - if not, you won't be able to use condenser mics.
 
Sorry about that.

I have two working options for pres.

1. Delta 66 soundcard w/ Omni Studio -- has its pres
2. Have an old Allen&Heath 16 channel mixer that has pp

thanks again
 
Just get a Studio Projects B3 and a DBX 242 parametric EQ (mono)
to tweak things (around $100 used), then call it a day (for now:)).

Chris
 
Yo Picker. Welcome to the board! First, the C414B-ULS can be had for $600 on ebay new in the box. That said, with a budget of $500-$1000, you can get a bunch of useful mics, which is much easier than trying to find one mic that will do everything. The C414B-ULS is one of the most versatile mics there is, but as a vocal mic, it leaves a lot to be desired. Frankly, I find bass rolloff and pads to be more useful overall than multi-patterns unless you are a highly skilled engineer with a good room.
In the condenser mic market, I basically lump condensers into 3 general categories: small diaphragm mics, large diaphragm mics, and workhorses. Workhorses are either mid-size or large diaphragm mics with small housings that are good for acoustic instruments, and about a third of vocalists. The C414 is a workhorse, a damn good one, but 2 out of 3 singers will sound like shit through it. It is, however, *great* on acoustic guitar, piano, percussion, and as an overhead.
Small diaphragm mics are a little noisier, but are very accurate. Great for overheads and many acoustic instruments, they usually (but not always) suck on vocals. They are often used in pairs, because the capsules can be put very close together, and the small light diaphragms react very quickly to rapid changes in volume, called fast transients. They produce a very good stereo
image, and are good for distant mic'ing a whole stage.
Large diaphragm mics are quieter, and slower to react to those fast transients, which usually makes them the first choice for vocals. They can also be used successfully on acoustic instruments or some percussion, but will produce a less detailed sound on sources with fast transients, which can be good or bad.
A note on tube mics. Although there is such a thing as a small diaphragm tube mic, most are large diaphragm mics, and they tend to fall into the large diaphragm group, not the workhorse group. Regarding, the C414- the TLII has a capsule based on the C12, a LD mic to die for. Basically it's tuned for vocals. Think of C414B-ULS as a workhorse and TLII as a large diaphragm. In other words, I prefer the B-ULS on guitar, and the TLII on vocals.
With your stated budget, there are perfectly good affordable examples of each available to you, and I believe a variety of good inexpensive mics made for fifferent jobs is a better choice for you than trying to find the $1000 solution to do-it-all mic'ing.
Before I list some favorites, a word on dynamics, and this largely applies to ribbon mics also, a special category of dynamics. Many will recommend dynamics from standard cheap (SM57) to badass (Sennheiser MD441). These mics have lower output than condensers, and they need a kickass preamp to really show you what they can do. When plugged into a preamp that's good enough, you can use dynamics to do almost any studio job, even overheads. And those preamps will really cost you.
That said, if you're really stuck on one mic, choose an LD that you like for vocals, at least you'll be able to sing through it, and it should be at least adequate for instruments. My favorites include Rode NTK and Studio Projects T-3, both tube mics, B.L.U.E. Dragonfly, and Shure KSM44. Cheap ones that work include Marshall V67 and V93, Studio Projects TB-1 and C-1.
My favorite workhorses- AKG C414B-ULS, B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle, and Neumann TLM 103. Cheaper ones that work- Studio Projects B-1, AKG C2000B, and Audio Technica 4033.
Small Diaphragms- I have less experience with the higher end of these, but Neumann KSM 184, and those by Earthworks and Schoeps, come highly recommended by those lucky enough to own them. Of the ones I've used (less expensive models), I like Marshall MXL603, Oktava MC012, Studio Projects C-4, and Rode NT5. Mostly, I use the C-4's, and they shine on almost everything.
So, with your budget, I think you would do well to get a good pair of SD's, a LD main vocal mic, and a workhorse. Where you put most of the money is up to you. My choice, under $1000, would be a pair of MXL603's ($160), AKG C2000B ($179 with the H100 shockmount and a cable at 8th street), Rode NTK (basically $500), and MXL V67G (a good non-tube LD for $90 or so). This covers all the bases and gives you a choice of LD mics for different voices.
That's the version where the money went into the LD. If you want a real good workhorse, get the C414 B-ULS, the 2 603's, and the V67G. Total-$850. If you want to go for somewhat better SD's, get the C-4's ($380), the V67G, TB-1, and C2000B or B-1. Total, about $700.
Anyway, I hope this way of looking at condenser mics will help to get you less confused, so all this technobabble will start to make sense. Remember, some of the greatest recordings ever made were made with cheap mics, but damn few of them were made with just *one* mic, no matter how good it was. Good luck-Richie
 
You are talking about chunking out a fairly decent ammount of money for your first condenser. I would suggest, as others are, of dividing the cost between a moderate priced condenser and a good preamp, which will make ALL of your mics sound better. In particular the SM57 and 58 require a good preamp to shine. While the preamps built into the delta line of cards is way better than, say, that in a soundblaster, the genreal feeling is to have separate preamps and soundcards. There are several reasons for this.

It put the preamp away from the electrical noise of the sound card and the rest of the computer.

Once you have more than one preamp you can mix and match them to your mics for specific recording conditions without having to have a whole different computer.

It allows you to upgrade your soundcard and preamp separately.
 
Wow... thanks for all the info... especially you Richard for your detailed explanation.

I discovered last night that my local GC has a sale this weekend including a factory matched pair of Oktavia 012s for a little over $200, so I might pick up a pair of those. That leaves the LD mic for primarily Vocals. and a "workhorse".

I'm still thinking of the AT4050 for this (after reading several favorable reviews). Maybe I'll get that and the oktavias and call it a day for now. Later, I can add other LDs to flesh out the mic locker. Sound good?

I was hoping to use the mic pre's from either the delta66 or the mixer for now. I have a 16 ch. SR series Allen & Heath that I was going to use for this purpose. Is this sufficient or will I really need to buy separate preamps? Down the line, I could buy more expensive pres, but for the time being, would buying a cheap pre be any better than running through the mixer?

thanks again :D
 
I have no experience with the Allen and Heath preamps to say whether they are good or bad. But a good preamp does not have to be a budget buster. The DMP3 preamp is a well respected unit around here for under 200 street.
 
Yo Picker, you're getting it. A point on the Oktavas- GC recently had them on sale for $179.- haggle with them, you'll save $20. For a long time, Taylor Johnson (The Sound Room) has been selling matched (damn well) pairs of MC012's at a price point *quite a bit* higher than GC. GC has sold random mics, often ones that got rejected by Taylor for various defects. Some of the GC mics are very good, I happen to have pair that work great.
Now they are advertising "factory matched" pairs, but nobody knows what that really means. Either the Oktava factory is really matching pairs, and The Sound Room simply can't get enough business at it's price point, or GC is lying. Both are possible.
My guess is that whoever is doing the alledged "matching" at least will weed out the real defectives, so it may be worth the extra money. Given that a pair of SD's have certain applications, I like the Oktavas best as drum overheads and for strings. I prefer the MXL 603's on guitar, and I prefer the C-4's to either of them for most applications, except heavy rock/blues overheads, where I still prefer the Oktavas.
I'm not personally familiar with the AT4040, but I'm guessing it will work either as a main vocal mic or a workhorse, I'm just not sure which. Sing into it, then try it on an acoustic around the 12th fret, and you'll know which pretty quick. Good luck-Richie.
 
Innovations said:
I have no experience with the Allen and Heath preamps to say whether they are good or bad. But a good preamp does not have to be a budget buster. The DMP3 preamp is a well respected unit around here for under 200 street.
Click to expand...

If he has the Allan & Heath WZ16:2DX... IMO, even the Mackie 8 bus preamps are better.

Oops... I see it's the SR and I've never used that... never mind.
 
Well, I won't get into the great mixer debate, but I will second r=the notion that about $150 of that $1000 budget would be well spent on a DMP3 which will improve your signal chain.-Richie
 
So, you're saying that pretty much any a mic pre would be better than using either the Omni Studio or the Mixer -pres?
 
I'm not sure the DMP3 is such a big step up from the Omni. I have the latter and it sounds pretty good.
According to M-audio, it has DMP-2 pre's.

Granted, if you can get the DMP-3 for around $100, as some have done recently at GC, hey, why not?
 
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