LD Condensers on Bass Drum?
- Thread starter JFogarty
- Start date
Slackmaster2K
Gone
http://www.slackmaster2000.com/v67kick.jpg
Haven't killed it yet...can't say much about sound quality because I haven't been recording drums long enough. Pretty decent though.
Slackmaster 2000
Haven't killed it yet...can't say much about sound quality because I haven't been recording drums long enough. Pretty decent though.
Slackmaster 2000
postalblue
New member
postalblue
New member
the problem with the ld condenser is the lack of attack. you could use two mics to help that.
adriano
adriano
postalblue
New member
the ld condenser is not very responsive to quick transients, thus its lack of attack. in other words, it doesn't react to incoming sounds as quickly as say a dynamic mic or a small diaphragm condenser.
the second mic would be a dynamic mic direct to the spot where the beater hits the batter head, to capture more of the beater attack.
large diaphragms as overheads are great but will sound pretty different from small diaphragms. small diaphragms work better when you're close miking each piece, i think.
adriano
the second mic would be a dynamic mic direct to the spot where the beater hits the batter head, to capture more of the beater attack.
large diaphragms as overheads are great but will sound pretty different from small diaphragms. small diaphragms work better when you're close miking each piece, i think.
adriano
I've used a LD on kick with pretty good results. I put mine back farther than slack's picture showed and built a half-assed tunnel with blankets to kill some of the cymbal bleed. It gave a nice thump or boom...not much attack to it at all, but in my opinion that's a good thing. I don't like the click-click kick sound that much. By the way the mic was a Cad E200.
knownuttin
New member
Since you asked about LD's as overheads, I'll give it a thumbs up. I've gotten some good sounds this way. Not my first option, but not a bad one.
skippy
New member
It's not that the LD doesn't have much attack- a good condenser mic has every bit as much attack, if not more, than a dynamic. The problem is that it can accurately track much more of the resonance and decay (the after-ring, if you will) *after* the attack, so it *sounds* like you get all "boooom" and no click: the balance between click and boom is radically different. The click is certainly there- it's just buried in the shell and head resonances that you aren't used to hearing from a dynamic. The condenser will be much better at tracking the decay than your average somewhat numb dynamic, so using it for kick takes some getting used to (and positioning it is pretty critical).
Here's something you might not have thought about. The dynamics actually _suck_ at tracking the resonance of the shell just after the attack, because that first transient from the beater seriously displaces the diaphragm and gives you essentially a mechanical compression effect: it takes several cycles (many milliseconds) for the diaphragm to return to the center of the magnetic gap after that first "thwack", and that colors the sound tremendously. I'd go so far as to say that that punchy kick drum sound we all want actually is as much the sound of the mic diaphragm damned near bottoming out as it is any function of the drum- we only really hear the drum way the heck out in the decay tail! That's why you get click-oom instead of clOOooom. The mechanical nature of the diaphragm provides you a compressor with an attack time of something like 500 microseconds, a release time of 50 milliseconds, and a ratio of maybe 20:1....
The first few cycles of a kick drum waveform are usually the mic freaking out, trying to handle that acoustic transient. The LDC doesn't offer this familiar behavior: it tries to faithfully reproduce the motion of the head. You may not like the sound of that, and that's just fine. But that's the reason that the AKG D-12, the RE20, and a few other dynamic mics are so uniformly loved for kick drum, _regardless_ of wht type of kick it is, or how the head is tuned, or how much damping material is in the shell: those mics always sound the same during that critical attack portion of the waveform, remarkably independent of how the drum itself actually sounds. And people are used to that sound.
I just used an Oktava MK319 on the kick for that jazz session I did, and it was great. I've also used MC012s in there, and like them even better- this is one case where a small-diaphragm (with a good pad!) can have an advantage. For rock and roll, though, I'll still reach for a dynamic first: like most people, I'm not always sure I _want_ to hear what the drum really sounds like in those first 3-5 cycles of the waveform. Frankly, I prefer the sound of a D-12 going "Ouch..."! (;-)
Harvey, whadda you think?
Here's something you might not have thought about. The dynamics actually _suck_ at tracking the resonance of the shell just after the attack, because that first transient from the beater seriously displaces the diaphragm and gives you essentially a mechanical compression effect: it takes several cycles (many milliseconds) for the diaphragm to return to the center of the magnetic gap after that first "thwack", and that colors the sound tremendously. I'd go so far as to say that that punchy kick drum sound we all want actually is as much the sound of the mic diaphragm damned near bottoming out as it is any function of the drum- we only really hear the drum way the heck out in the decay tail! That's why you get click-oom instead of clOOooom. The mechanical nature of the diaphragm provides you a compressor with an attack time of something like 500 microseconds, a release time of 50 milliseconds, and a ratio of maybe 20:1....
The first few cycles of a kick drum waveform are usually the mic freaking out, trying to handle that acoustic transient. The LDC doesn't offer this familiar behavior: it tries to faithfully reproduce the motion of the head. You may not like the sound of that, and that's just fine. But that's the reason that the AKG D-12, the RE20, and a few other dynamic mics are so uniformly loved for kick drum, _regardless_ of wht type of kick it is, or how the head is tuned, or how much damping material is in the shell: those mics always sound the same during that critical attack portion of the waveform, remarkably independent of how the drum itself actually sounds. And people are used to that sound.
I just used an Oktava MK319 on the kick for that jazz session I did, and it was great. I've also used MC012s in there, and like them even better- this is one case where a small-diaphragm (with a good pad!) can have an advantage. For rock and roll, though, I'll still reach for a dynamic first: like most people, I'm not always sure I _want_ to hear what the drum really sounds like in those first 3-5 cycles of the waveform. Frankly, I prefer the sound of a D-12 going "Ouch..."! (;-)
Harvey, whadda you think?
I have a friend who runs a great studio here in the Clearwater area who always uses LD condensers on EVERYTHING: overheads, snare drum, bass drum, toms, bass amp, guitar amps...you name it. Their favorites seem to be the CAD/Equitek VX2s down there. Those mics are always in action somewhere at every session. He's got a majorly cool mic locker from Hell down there; vintage Neumanns, AKGs, Sennheisers, EV RE-20s anything you want. They also have a few of the new Shure LDs KMS32s and some Manleys too. But, in lieu of these they'll use the VX2s most of the time.
postalblue
New member
hey skippy, great info!
thanks for clearing that out.
i'll have to try the small diaphragm condenser on kick. only thing is my mxl 603 doesn't have a pad, but i think it can handle high spl. i'll have to check. i have used it for snare, and it sounds quite good.
adriano
thanks for clearing that out.
i'll have to try the small diaphragm condenser on kick. only thing is my mxl 603 doesn't have a pad, but i think it can handle high spl. i'll have to check. i have used it for snare, and it sounds quite good.
adriano
Markd102
New member
Sorry Baldguy, I wasn't trying to flame you. It's just that he was asking about LD condensers.
The E200 is a great mic. Check out Dave Duffus He's a sax player mate of mine who uses a E200 as his sole mic.
I didn't mention the 4033 because I know nothing about it, and I don't like sprouting off about things I don't know about.
peace
Mark
The E200 is a great mic. Check out Dave Duffus He's a sax player mate of mine who uses a E200 as his sole mic.
I didn't mention the 4033 because I know nothing about it, and I don't like sprouting off about things I don't know about.
peace
Mark