Layered vocal question

S

starch

New member
I am in the process of recording an album. The sound is somewhere in between U2, coldplay, and evanescence. We are at the final stage of tracking the vocals. For many of the tracks the vocalist sings the main part, a unison double (recorded with 2 mics), and a harmony part mostly for parts of the chorus or bridges.

My question... What are some of the ways you guys might blend and mix the vocals in the mix. I know it is difficult without actually hearing the tunes, but I am looking for some of your 'typical' approaches. I have tried some variations of: main vox up middle, double mixed low behind the main vox and panned about 15% left and right, and the harmony part panned hard left and right. What are some things you might try? I would also be up for suggestions on any processing you might try. (ie. heavy comp harm vox with stereo delay or heavy verb)

Just looking for ways to help stimulate some creativity.

Thanks for any input.
 
hmm...

can't really help, but I would like to ask why you are using two mics? just out of interest.

also, if your wanting to stimulate creativity, i can highly recommend endless tweaking and fiddling about. every mistake is a potentially new option.
 
I am using 2 mics as part of the 'endless tweaking and fiddling about'

I didn't want to triple the vox because it starts to sound like a choir behind, so I get the exact same take, but with 2 different textures. Instead of tweaking eq, the mics give me a subtle eq offset, then I pan them away from each other. It worked for me to make the vox sound more rich but also keep the vocal double tight at the same time.

This music is for a paying client, so I didn't want to waste a lot of his time 'trying' all kinds of new things. I just tried to give myself some flexibility so I could play on my own time in the mixing stage.

Also, I am not asking because I don't have a clue how to mix these vocals, I just wanted to know what some of you might do and hope I can learn some new things in the process.
 
My first post in a year. Okay. great question but I only know some stuff, first of all, an experienced engineer knows how to really nail harmonies and make them silky smooth. There are simple processor plug-ins that really smooth out harmonies. I dont know the particular setting, but they did it for a couple of my songs last year. Let THEM figure it out for you. Also, lead vox always down the middle, and harmony panned. Now I forgot your question. But, last but not least, LISTEN carefully to the Beatles harmonies and how they sit in the mix, for ideas. They were unsurpassed. I hope this helps a little.
 
Lead vocals

This is very dependent on the song and the target environment. The environment that most people listen to music in is in their car (driver's side). Based on that, I’ve been playing around with lead vocal locations and ran across this little trick (well, not really a trick).

Pan the vocal right of center, approximately 12:30. This will slightly increase the time it takes the lead vocals to reach the listener (far left side of vehicle) making the vocals seemingly sit up the center. With the vocals panned directly up the center, the listener will perceive that the vocals are right on top of them (which may or may not be exactly what you want, again song dependent). With the slight pan to the right, it will not only sound (to the listener) that the vocals are right up the middle but it will also create more “space” for other things that tend to co-occupy the center (e.g., bass guitar, kick, snare).

If done correctly, even if listening on the home stereo, the pan will not be noticeable to most listeners.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Simman, what a great thought about the listening position in a vehicle. Something I easily forget about. You got me thinking about my panning position and how important it is what side the panning is on. If someone is listening in their car, the right side will be more prominent.

I will try chorus on the harmonies and play with pan positions. this type of input was exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks
 
Simman, I don't know if it's a good idea to mix something assuming the listener will be in the car. Although I do a fair amount of listening in my car, I never sonically "analyze" music there. I drive. I really listen to an album at home with headphones. Plus, they drive on different sides in different countries.

[opinion]Plus, George Martin (Beatle's producer) never mixed an album for the car and I think the Beatle records sound just perfect. :) [/opinion]

starch, I don't think there really is a specific answer to your question. It depends (like most topics related to recorded sound) mainly on what kind of sound you are looking for, what the song demands, and what the artist wants.

double mixed low behind the main vox and panned about 15% left and right, and the harmony part panned hard left and right.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. Do you mean you recorded the backing/harmony vocal with two microphones (let's call tem "A" and "B") and microphone A goes to 15% to the left and microphone goes 15% to the right? From what I gather, you have a main vocal and a background/harmony vocal for the chorus and parts of the verses, and each was recorded with two different microphones. Did you record the vocals with the mikes at least a foot apart, one behind the other? I find that lessens any phasing problems when I record something in stereo with microphones close together. Although that is not as bad a problem if the microphones are not the same type, or the same type and brand. Anyway...

I would better be able to tell you what I would do (since you asked for opinions and output) in this situation if I knew exactly how many different vocal parts there are (the lead/main vocal, background/harmony vocal, etc) and how each part was recorded.

Some quick advice (which I am sure you already know) is that adding some delay, reverb, or chorus to the vocal can help produce some neat stereo nuances to a vocal. Especially if you keep them quiet enough. Then, it just adds that "openness" to the vocal.
 
Morningloryseed said:
Simman, I don't know if it's a good idea to mix something assuming the listener will be in the car. Although I do a fair amount of listening in my car, I never sonically "analyze" music there. I drive. I really listen to an album at home with headphones. Plus, they drive on different sides in different countries.
Click to expand...

I never said it was a good idea to assume anything! I said mixing for the intended audience/environment was important.

There are people (some even working in the recording industry) that compile this sort of data and like it or not, most people listen to music in their vehicle. So I totally disagree with your point; however, there is no silver bullet/perfect solution to mixing. This is an inexact science and purely subjective. But regardless of that, IMHO, it is still beneficial to consider the listening environment when doing mixes.

Case in point….You could spend all the time in the world panning and building this nice stereo field that sounds great on your stereo, car, boom box, etc. Now take that same mix to a large club and I bet it sounds like crap due to several facts not the least of which is listener location/perspective.

As for your Beatle comments, I too am a Beatle fan. However, have you ever really listened to the panning on those recordings? Most of the vocals are panned hard to one side.
 
Last edited:
>I never said it was a good idea to assume anything! I said
>mixing for the intended audience/environment was important.

It's cool. :) I was just weighing in my opinion. I know you didn't say mixing a song for the car stereo is a rule written in stone.

>There are people (some even working in the recording industry)
>that compile this sort of data and like it or not, most people
>listen to music in their vehicle.

Having studied in college (among many other things) the many different types of surveys used, as well as how they are conducted, I tend not to trust them. Not unless I know what kind of survey it is, and what methods were used for the data collection.

As for the results, it would certainly depend in what part of the world you live in. It could only be representative of the USA where more cars exist per person than in any other Western nation (accord to my World atlas at least.) But even in the USA, many cities/towns have a large amount of people who use/rely on public transportation as their main means of travel. So if they are listening to music, it is through a walkman and headphones.

I live in a small town, so I tend to walk or bike to where I am going. If I use my car, it is usually to get groceries so I'm not in my vehicle for more than a few minutes. But this is all beside the point.

But I will say that even if "most people" do listen to music in their car, it's not an ideal listening environment and I wouldn't mix my songs for a non-ideal listening environment. But that is just me.

>As for your Beatle comments, I too am a Beatle fan.
>However, have you ever really listened to the panning on those
>recordings? Most of the vocals are panned hard to one side.

I wouldn't say most, but hard-panning was standard mixing procedure back then for many recordings, Beatles or not. Personally I like it and do a lot of hard-panning with backing instruments and sometimes even the lead vocals.

It's really a matter of personal taste, but sometimes you can get some neat results by hard-panning tracks to one side or the other. I find it especially good on tracks that are just a vocal and guitar, like when I record my friend who does a lot of Dylan numbers. They are just him, his acoustic, and a harmonica.

But if the vocal is not recorded at the same time as the guitar (no leakage which is good in this situation), the tracks may sound too "separate" or "isolated" and not resemble real-world listening. So in that situation I'll mix the left channel to 9:00 and the right to 3:00. I then add a tiny bit of reverb to fill in the stereo picture and make it sound more "whole" or "complete."
 
Morningloryseed said:


But I will say that even if "most people" do listen to music in their car, it's not an ideal listening environment and I wouldn't mix my songs for a non-ideal listening environment. But that is just me.
Click to expand...


Why do you think a car is not an ideal listening environment? Acoustically speaking I would say a car is a very good environment. There tend to be few, if any, right angles to contribute stand wave issues. The curved surfaces of the glass reduce parallel “wall” reflections. In fact, I’d say that the interiors of most cars are better designed acoustically than most home studio control rooms.


Again, I don't mean to give the impression that this (a car) is the only environment to mix for , it's not. Good translation of your mixes, to many environments, is the Holy Grail.

I do agree with you 100% that your mixes will come down to personal preference (Unless a client is paying, then it's their preference :D )
 
"Why do you think a car is not an ideal listening environment? Acoustically speaking I would say a car is a very good environment. There tend to be few, if any, right angles to contribute stand wave issues. The curved surfaces of the glass reduce parallel “wall” reflections. In fact, I’d say that the interiors of most cars are better designed acoustically than most home studio control rooms."


I have spent some time in the Car Audio industry and have a pretty high end system myself. Its pretty well know that a car is a nightmare when it comes to acoustics. The main culprit....glass. All the windows in your car turn it into a acoustical mess. Try covering your windows with foam. Iv done it before (dont ask its a long story) and it makes a huge diffrence. But not the best for driving, cuts way down on visibility. Just my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
Morningloryseed, I have a total of 3 takes.
1 - lead vox
2 - Unison vocal double (recorded with 2 different mics diaphrams < 1" apart)
3 - Harmony (recorded same as #2)

So I have five tracks to use with but only three different parts. I hope that made sense.

Morningloryseed said:


starch, I don't think there really is a specific answer to your question. It depends (like most topics related to recorded sound) mainly on what kind of sound you are looking for, what the song demands, and what the artist wants.

And I am not looking for a specific answer, just some different ideas to try to learn some new things.

The question was sort of a what would you try if... question.

I agree that I wouldn't change my whole mix to accomodate car listeners, But it might be worth keeping in mind knowing that many people listen to music in the car, so if I am panning an electric and acoustic guitar opposite each other, I might place the one I think is more important right just for that reason.
Click to expand...
 
>Why do you think a car is not an ideal listening environment?

The most obvious answer is the sound of the road, motor, other cars, etc will (obviously) compete and cover some sounds, unless you turn your stereo to levels that are not healthy for the ears. But also, one really needs to be focusing on the road and not the music. When I seriously listen to music, I can not be driving because I turn my attention away from everything else but the sound. I'd cause an accident!

Another thing is you are either right or left of the center of the stereo picture dependingn on where you are sitting. You want to be in the middle. Yeah, you could mix it for a car, but I sure will get mad when I put my headphones on to lose myself in the music and the mix is all screwy and to the right (or left.) And depending on how you mix it (and what country you are in) either the driver or passenger is not going to get the best reproduction of your hard work at the mixing table because they are on the "wrong side" of the mix.

>Acoustically speaking I would say a car is a very good
>environment. There tend to be few, if any, right angles to
>contribute stand wave issues. The curved surfaces of the glass
>reduce parallel “wall” reflections. In fact, I’d say that the
>interiors of most cars are better designed acoustically than most
>home studio control rooms.

I really can not say much because I don't feel like taking the time to find you specific and citable references that give reasons can show you why a car is acoustically horrible for listening to music "accurately."

All of the different angles and textures of the car's interior make for a sonic nightmare if one were to get technical about it and involve the various odd reverberations and phase cancellations that occur from the sound hitting and being reflected off the numerous and varying surfaces of the interior of the car. Sound is reflected differently off plastic, fibrous, soft and plush, and glass surfaces found in a car.

But again, I am not going to say you are wrong because I don't have specific citations to back me up. But from what I have read about the properties of sound, after who I have talked to, and just sitting down and thinking about it, I disagree completely.
 

1 - lead vox
2 - Unison vocal double (recorded with 2 different mics diaphrams < 1" apart)
3 - Harmony (recorded same as #2)
Click to expand...

In most situations, I'd keep the single track of #1 dead center and pan each track/channel of #2 and #3 hard left and hard right. If it doesn’t sound quite right then I'd pan each side to 9:00 and 3:00, or somewhere in between. I like wide stereo pictures.

Also reverse the phase on one side of each secondary vocal just to hear what happens. It may sound better because you can get some nasty phase cancellations if you don't have the mikes positioned just right when you can record. This will fix it.

Or it can make for a neat effect. I've done it with recordings of my friend singing while playing his acoustic guitar, using two tracks. One track is his acoustic guitar recorded with an SM 57, and the other is the vocal recorded with a condensor (AT 4033.)

Obviously on the track recorded with the condensor, a fair amount of higher frequencies from the guitar leaked in with the vocal. Reversing the phase on the track with the just the acoustic (recorded with the SM 57) occasionally sounds good if you equalize it right and keep both tracks panned dead center, or at most one to 11:00/11:30 and the other to 1:00/1:30.

Either way, definitely reverse the phase on each just to see.

Then mix and season (reverb, delay, chorus, etc) as needed.
 
I tried your suggestion on flipping the phase. It sounded way to 'phasey' but it was a good suggestion. The reason I put the diaphrams so close together was to eliminate as much of the phase issues as I could (similar to XY idea) and it worked reasonaby well. Will play with other mix suggestions.

Thanks. I appreciate all the input.
 
I'd go lead vocal straight down the middle.
Harmonies slightly right/left but not too far from the lead vocal (say 11:00 am and 1pm in clock analogy).

I usualy take some low end off my vocals as it tends to muddy the mix and competes with guitars & other stuff for the middle ground (I also take bass off the guitar as it competes with bass guitar!), but maybe that's just an issue with my voice?

I've also added a little choris tp backing harmonies as it really helps them to thicken & blend together.

A little reverb on the vocies I always use, even if it is not obviously 'noticeable' it is there.

Listen to other vocalists in the same style/genre of music, how does their voice sound?
 
I think in the final mix I will do the lead vox center, the 2 double tracks just off center (maybe 5% left and right) w/ moderately heavy compression and some verb. The harmonies I thnk I will pan hard L/R with comp and chorus and maybe a pinck of verb.

But I really appreciate all the comments. I am doing whatever I can to pick up new ideas and not get boxed in by what I have always done.

Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top