Jazz guitar help

[eyema_believer]

Hello everyone,

As has been pointed out here, my lead playing is more than a bit diatonic. (very simple, harmonically speaking) So, I'm taking a jazz band course at community college this fall. Can someone recommend to me some progressions, and what chords to use where....I need a brush-up.
For instance... 1-2-5. In the Key of "A" might be Amaj7, Bm6, Em7. Or whatever.... I just pulled that out of the air.....

Help!

~Shawn

 

[Henry Mars]

Hello everyone,

As has been pointed out here, my lead playing is more than a bit diatonic. (very simple, harmonically speaking) So, I'm taking a jazz band course at community college this fall. Can someone recommend to me some progressions, and what chords to use where....I need a brush-up.
For instance... 1-2-5. In the Key of "A" might be Amaj7, Bm6, Em7. Or whatever.... I just pulled that out of the air.....

Help!

~Shawn

Try to obtain the following books:

Tonal and Rhythmic Principles (Jazz Improvisation I) by John Mehegan
Jazz and The Improvised Line (Jazz Improvisation II) by John Mehegan
Chords and Chord Progressions Vol. I and II by Bugs Bower
Beginners Book for Jazz Improvisation by Adolf Sandole
The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

There is enough stuff in these books to keep you very busy over the next several years. These books are among the best IMO. All you have to do is sweat them out.

 

[dementedchord]

not sure who or why you were told diatonic is bad somehow... most music is diatonic at some level... you hear rockers talking about I IV V type progressions sometimes even making each a dominant function chord... well jazz when analyized works off of ii V7 I... often temp modulating it several times through out the tune... the easiest example that comes to mind is satin doll...


the changes basicly are:

Dm G7 Dm G7 Em A7 Em A7 Dm Db7 C

the first 2 measures the Dmin and G7 are the ii V7 in C
the third and fourth measures are ii V7 in D
then back to C for the final resolution ii V I(tritone sub is used for the V)

so as you can see when soloing on this you have to use both keys of C and D...

this is where a theory background is helpful... as what you need to do is beable to easily identify the keys common to a progression...

make sense???

 

[leddy]

The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

+Infinity

That book alone could keep you real busy for a while.

I once fell into the trap of getting every book there was on how to play jazz. It gets crazy. Just pick one or two and REALLY try to wrap your head around it.

What you are asking about in your post is how not to play so "inside". But it also sounds like you don't really have a strong understanding of what inside is yet. Start with learning major scale harmony. While doing that, learn a few simple tunes (Autumn Leaves, etc.). As you understand major scale harmony, learn to analyze those tunes and see chords in terms of their function because - ultimately - you want to be able to learn a tune so well you can play it in any key without really thinking about it. Not just the chords, but the melodies too. The more expressively you can play melodies, the more expressive your solos will be.

With that ability, you will begin to develop a more mature vocabulary when you improvise. And don't get hung up on playing the "right" notes when you blow. Just listen for what you want to hear.

I love jazz, and I love to see people want to learn it. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

 

[famous beagle]

"Rhythm Changes," based on Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" is essential. There are lots of variations, but here's a basic version in Bb:

A section:
||: Bb G7 | Cm F7 | Dm G7 | Cm F7 |

| Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm | Dm G7 | Cm F7 :||

B section (bridge):

| D7 | | G7 | |
| C7 | | F7 | |

A section again


This is very basic, and you see tons of variations on this with passing diminished chords, flat-five substitutions, etc. For instance, you might see the first phrase played like this:

| Bb6 Bdim7 | Cm7 C#dim7 | Dm7 etc. |

... where the Bdim7 is acting as a G7b9 with the 3rd in the bass, and the C#dim7 is acting kind of like a Bbdim7 (this is a more advanced resolution). Regardless, the elements from Rhythm Changes that show up a lot are the I-vi-ii-V in the beginning, and the cycle of 5ths bridge.

Also, a jazz blues is great to practice with too. Again, there are too many variations to list, but here's a good one to start with in C:

| C7 | F7 | C7 | Gm7 C7 |

| F7 | F#dim7 | C7 | A7 |

| Dm7 | G7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 |


As someone else mentioned, learn melodies! Don't just learn chord progressions from a Real Book. Learning melodies will help expand your repertoire of licks more than you know. You'll begin to recognize lots of things and will develop your ear much more quickly.

 

[muttley600]

Get a good fake book, learn lots of changes. Get a good theory book, learn lots of theory. Learn as many melodies from as many standards as you can. Transcribe it all into flat keys so the horn players can wing it. Next, and this is the important bit. Forget everything you have learned and just go out there and play it.

 

[Henry Mars]

"Rhythm Changes," based on Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" is essential. There are lots of variations, but here's a basic version in Bb:

A section:
||: Bb G7 | Cm F7 | Dm G7 | Cm F7 |

| Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm | Dm G7 | Cm F7 :||

B section (bridge):

| D7 | | G7 | |
| C7 | | F7 | |

A section again


This is very basic, and you see tons of variations on this with passing diminished chords, flat-five substitutions, etc. For instance, you might see the first phrase played like this:

| Bb6 Bdim7 | Cm7 C#dim7 | Dm7 etc. |

... where the Bdim7 is acting as a G7b9 with the 3rd in the bass, and the C#dim7 is acting kind of like a Bbdim7 (this is a more advanced resolution). Regardless, the elements from Rhythm Changes that show up a lot are the I-vi-ii-V in the beginning, and the cycle of 5ths bridge.

Also, a jazz blues is great to practice with too. Again, there are too many variations to list, but here's a good one to start with in C:

| C7 | F7 | C7 | Gm7 C7 |

| F7 | F#dim7 | C7 | A7 |

| Dm7 | G7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 |


As someone else mentioned, learn melodies! Don't just learn chord progressions from a Real Book. Learning melodies will help expand your repertoire of licks more than you know. You'll begin to recognize lots of things and will develop your ear much more quickly.

Mostly you have to forget about rock and learn how music is put together.
The Real Book has a lot of old standards that will get you on your way.

There is an old out of print music theory book (40 years out of print) by Carolyn Alchen. If you can find it down load it. There is a ton of stuff in there , mostly classical, but a real eye opener if you can read it.

 

[Light]

For Jazz? There is really only one thing you have to know perfectly. It's pretty simple.


ii7 V7 I



Spend the rest of your life getting that down, then come back for the next lesson - the Blues.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Henry Mars]

For Jazz? There is really only one thing you have to know perfectly. It's pretty simple.


ii7 V7 I



Spend the rest of your life getting that down, then come back for the next lesson - the Blues.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I wouldn't make it quite that simple, although cadences and turnarounds are important.

 

[Light]

I wouldn't make it quite that simple, although cadences and turnarounds are important.

OK, fine, throw in all the variations of II-V-I. You know, tritone subs, cycling dominants, all that shit.

I suppose it would be a good idea to learn some modal theory too, but lets face it, modal soloing is easy. Well, relatively.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Henry Mars]

OK, fine, throw in all the variations of II-V-I. You know, tritone subs, cycling dominants, all that shit.

I suppose it would be a good idea to learn some modal theory too, but lets face it, modal soloing is easy. Well, relatively.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I don't know. some of the Joe Henderson modal stuff isn't so easy, or Wayne Shorter stuff. Every try to solo over Giant Steps ... even with pentonic scales it is a killer. My point is that this can't over simplified.

 

[famous beagle]

OK, fine, throw in all the variations of II-V-I. You know, tritone subs, cycling dominants, all that shit.

I suppose it would be a good idea to learn some modal theory too, but lets face it, modal soloing is easy. Well, relatively.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

While "soloing with a mode" may be easy, I'd argue that much fewer people can create good modal solos. You've really got to know much more about phrasing and melody in order to create interesting lines without the benefit of harmony to help you out.

ii-V-I is certainly the most ubiquitous progression in jazz, that's for sure, but mastering that alone will hardly make you a fluid jazz player.

 

[Thurgood]

I guess I am logged in. Very sorry to postpone response as I hav to go running in the heat. I will further respond to you jazz issue. The above are very good references. Bump to Light the 2 5 1 progression is a great way to begin. will be back aftr torture.

 

[Light]

I don't know. some of the Joe Henderson modal stuff isn't so easy, or Wayne Shorter stuff. Every try to solo over Giant Steps ... even with pentonic scales it is a killer. My point is that this can't over simplified.

Except, Giant Steps isn't a modal piece. It's got four measures of weird changes (but not modal changes), and the rest of it is nothing but a string of ii-V-I's. It's actually not that hard, if you play it as a ballad. It's only when you start playing it as a up tempo piece that it gets difficult.

But I was (as usual) being a bit hyperbolic. You need to focus on being able to continue your lines through changes of key, to play the changes, so to speak. My favorite reference for, well really any guitar playing, but in particular jazz guitar is Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. Buy that, work your way through it. You'll be in much better shape.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[jfrog]

I guess I am logged in. Very sorry to postpone response as I hav to go running in the heat. I will further respond to you jazz issue. The above are very good references. Bump to Light the 2 5 1 progression is a great way to begin. will be back aftr torture.

off topic, but you're going running in August in Jackson??!! Ouch.

I actually lived in Jackson for a summer many years ago.

 

[leddy]

Except, Giant Steps isn't a modal piece. It's got four measures of weird changes (but not modal changes), and the rest of it is nothing but a string of ii-V-I's. It's actually not that hard, if you play it as a ballad. It's only when you start playing it as a up tempo piece that it gets difficult.

But I was (as usual) being a bit hyperbolic. You need to focus on being able to continue your lines through changes of key, to play the changes, so to speak. My favorite reference for, well really any guitar playing, but in particular jazz guitar is Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. Buy that, work your way through it. You'll be in much better shape.

I'm pretty sure Henry knows Giant Steps isn't modal - I think he just was making a point that learning ii-V-I's doesn't cover all the bases.

Excellent point on reminding folks they have to learn to play through the key changes.

 

[leddy]

I just want to reiterate that I think the Mark Levine "Jazz Theory" book lays out a good syllabus for learning jazz:

Part 1
Theory; Scale harmony including major, minor, diminished and whole tone.
Practice tips.

Part 2
"From scales to music"; bebop, pent., blues, playing outside, rhythm changes and blues forms.

Part 3
Reharmonization; basic and advanced, Coltrane changes

Part 4
Tunes; Common forms, how to learn them, repertoire

Part 5
Everything else; listening, latin jazz, more

 

[Henry Mars]

Except, Giant Steps isn't a modal piece. It's got four measures of weird changes (but not modal changes), and the rest of it is nothing but a string of ii-V-I's. It's actually not that hard, if you play it as a ballad. It's only when you start playing it as a up tempo piece that it gets difficult.

But I was (as usual) being a bit hyperbolic. You need to focus on being able to continue your lines through changes of key, to play the changes, so to speak. My favorite reference for, well really any guitar playing, but in particular jazz guitar is Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. Buy that, work your way through it. You'll be in much better shape.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

The point I was trying to make with my Giant Steps reference ( and I probably could have made it better ) is that there are many approaches to improvising on Giant Steps. Entire books have been written about it.
One night several years ago Joe Pass was in town ( Philly ) he told me how much he hated Giant Steps .... but every one including me wanted him to play it. Strange because he used a chord scale approach on it and it really sounded cool.
Another approach in any musical piece is to to try and find the harmonic line in the tune, you then can use modes against the harmonic line to get an interesting solo. The key to all of this is not to think of music in one dimension. There are many approaches.
As far as Mick Goodrick's book goes it is ok just too guitar oriented. I believe in the concept of learning music first then applying it to a particular instrument. You need to climb out of the guitar thought mode .. think like a musician then apply what you know to the guitar. Some of the best ideas I have had came to me while I was screwing around with the piano .. and a lot of it can be made to work on the guitar ... remember, be a musician first.

BTW I don't play piano, but I learned a lot about chord construction and voice leading on it.

 

[eyema_believer]

Thanks for all the input so far everyone. Keep in mind, that I just want to start out with getting a few new chords under my fingers, so I can play a jazz tune and not sound like a complete nit-wit. Soloing? Not too worried about it yet, but I'll most likely keep my simple scales and try and change keys with the song.

 

[Corndog]

I used to be a bass player so my solo-ing never got past the "nurnt-NEE nurnt-NEE" stage!!!

I just make up shit with the "Don't know don't care...lucky bastard" school of chord progressions.



...I am of NO help am I???