Is this possible???

gibson59neck

gibson59neck

Villiage Idiot Keeper
Hey there all you microphone/recording wizards...

I have no clue about most recording techiniques, if any, although I did just read that page about microphones and I try to read stuff here and learn - I play guitar and try make it sound good. That's about it. Our band plays heavy rock and metal "ish" stuff, and we need to find a way to record just to capture our spontaneous jams during practice, so that we stop wasting our time and losing our good ideas forever!

Before you all go into the details of mic theory and tell me about your dream recording setup, and you know who you are out there (!!!! :D ) please keep this in mind - we are looking for a basic way to mic the room and get our new ideas on tape. THAT IS IT - when we decide we want to make quality recordings, we'll go to a studio, or learn more from you guys and make one, but FOR NOW, is there a cheap mic or mics you'd recommend that can do this?

Our space is realitively small - it's a basement room, maybe 15 x 15, with old paneling on the walls and ductwork, etc...and there are five of us - singer, two guitars, a bass, and drums. We are recording with tapes, into a Tascam 8 track. Is it even possible that a mic exists in this world that can withstand our environment and give us back a basic copy of our ideas? The main goal would be to have it record the room ( like the old boom box technique with it's little tiny built in condenser mic)

By the way, I was looking at today's boom boxes at Circuit City, and they don't seem to have those little mics in them anymore....I tried a little old flip-top recorder but it was too distorted. We've also tried using various cheap mics set up around the room, but the tapes always come out with one of us sounding way too loud. ( the 3 mics are: SM57, nady starpower, and some other thing we found somewhere that at least looks like a mic...)

There you have it. Any help out there???
 
Tascam 4 track cassette recorder with 4 mics. 1 on each guitar and bass, and if one if left over, a room mic for the drums and vocals. If you only have one guitar, then you could have a vocal channel track too where you could send an out from the PA.

Leave it set up so when you are jamming you can just hit record when you find something you like.

Oh ya, and since this is not for anything other than ideas, you can use really cheap mics.


But if you want even simpler and cheaper and don't need the extra tracks for all seperate instruments and lots of mics, get a cheap LD mic and stick it somewhere in the middle of the room where it picks everything up and send that to a spare channel on the PA and then output to a tape recorder or cheap HD recorder of somekind.

I have tried the handheld tape recorders with the internal mics before....well, way back when homerecording wasn't anywhere near as common, and it will work, but you end up straining your ear trying to decifer what you where doing and what you are hearing. (They do make for a good effect though if used to close mic a guitar speaker, but that is for another topic)
 
I agree with above. If you've got an eight-track recorder, just stick a mic close to each guitar/bass cab and an omni room mic close to the singer's PA. That should pick up basically everything.
 
heres what i do:

1. http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/msh1series.html get a pair of these
2. get a 2 channel preamp.. literally anything will do. i see studio project vtb1s going for something crazy like $60 on here and they're more than great for this. use a crap mixer from the 80s for all i care.
3. buy 1 drum clip, clip it on the top beater side of the bass drum, and put one of the mics right there. trust me.
4. put the other one in the virtual middle of all of your equipment
5. record onto any cheap stereo cassette deck

i usually take the tape and transfer it to my computer and blend the 2 mics, since one will be in the right channel and one will be in the left.
i imagine you can get all of this stuff in the used department for under a hundred bucks.
 
Cool as heck. I love this site. Thanks! I'm going to have to print these and try them out one by one....!
 
steve.h said:
I agree with above. If you've got an eight-track recorder, just stick a mic close to each guitar/bass cab and an omni room mic close to the singer's PA. That should pick up basically everything.
Click to expand...

Omni Room mic? Can you explain? I mean, as in, brands?
 
gibson59neck said:
Wow! COuld that take in a loud ass rock band up close and not turn into a puddle?
Click to expand...

You're not planning on gluing it to the cone on your cab, are you? :D

Seriously, if your computer can handle it, the iPod should have no trouble. I've jogged with my old 5GB iPod in my pocket. Do you honestly think that mere rock music is going to hurt it? :)

Or did you mean the microphone? I have no idea what the SPL handling of that mic is. Worth checking to make sure it won't distort. OTOH, if a small condenser can't handle it, I'd expect your SM57 to fly apart, too. :D Just my gut feeling, though. I could be wrong.

Also, remember that the key to getting a good blended sound is to move the microphone farther back so that it picks up everything.
 
treymonfauntre said:
heres what i do:

1. http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/msh1series.html get a pair of these
2. get a 2 channel preamp.. literally anything will do. i see studio project vtb1s going for something crazy like $60 on here and they're more than great for this. use a crap mixer from the 80s for all i care.
3. buy 1 drum clip, clip it on the top beater side of the bass drum, and put one of the mics right there. trust me.
4. put the other one in the virtual middle of all of your equipment
5. record onto any cheap stereo cassette deck

i usually take the tape and transfer it to my computer and blend the 2 mics, since one will be in the right channel and one will be in the left.
i imagine you can get all of this stuff in the used department for under a hundred bucks.
Click to expand...

+100

-surf
 
My favorite setup is a SM-57 (although basically anything will work) behind the drums about five feet up and pointed 45 degrees downward. Try to position it so the drummer's body blocks the snare a bit. This setup works best if your floor is wood or concrete. Then point your amps towards the mic (yep, in the drummer's face :D )
 
omni dynamics and some tips

Hi,

Omnidirectional dynamics take more abuse and higher sound pressure levels than condensors. Many of them have a frequency response of 80-13000 or so which is actually an advantage over 20-20000 in your situation. And they don't require phantom power.

Here are a few less expensive dynamic omnis.

EV 635a - used $50-$60
EV RE50 - a little bit more expensive
Realistic 1070b,c, or d - Radio Shack hired Shure to make RE50 clones - great mics used $15-$25
Shure - SM61

The EV 635a has been a standard of the broadcast interview/video industry for over 50 years. It is still in production. The EV RE50 has also had a long history of always delivering usable audio even in difficult situations.

The Radio Shack is your cheapest option. The price stays low because of the brand name but they are in fact high quality Shure omnis.

I have no idea how much the Shure SM61s cost. I have two. One was given to me and one was a yard sale find. I had to fix wiring on both of them and they feel light and cheap but they are in fact reliable field mics you can trust. My guess is $50.

Just to fill out the high end a little bit these mics have been recommended to me but so far I haven't been able to afford them. EV RE55 and Beyer M101. The EVs go for about $150 each and the Beyers are $150-200 per pair. While this makes them expensive for dynamic omnis this is still very inexpensive by pro studio standards.

So $30 for the 1070s up to $300 for two RE55s. You probably won't hear a lot of difference between any of these mics. With the three omni pairs I regularly use (635a, 1070b, SM61) I have to check my notes to see which I had set up. I can't tell by listening.

Here is my recommended first stab at recording anything.

Set up a pair of omnis spaced 3 to 6 feet apart in a place you think will work. Record your best song or part of it and listen to it. Move the mics. Repeat. Move the mics. Repeat until you have an overall good sounding image of your band. Something that sounds like you do live without adding extra distortion or other weirdness.

Take a break and listen to the tapes carefully. Listen to them on several different stereos, in your car, on headphones, etc. Try to figure out how they could be better. Are the vocals hard to hear? Does the guitar not cut or does it cut too much? Can you hear the bass? Does it have full round tones? Is one of the notes way loud or way quiet? Are the drums too loud?

Recording is different than playing. Sometimes to make good recording that sounds really loud you have to play softer. The musicians have to adjust their playing to improve the tapes. This will usually improve your live sound too.

Now there are three things you can try. Add sound baffling. Move the mics (again). Or add more mics. They should be tried in that order.

Sound baffling can be heavy blankets hung over mic stands. Packing blankets are popular for this. Pillows, curtains, closets full of clothes, bean bags, etc. You have to experiment with this. Sometimes baffle the mics. Sometimes baffle the amps or the drums.

For better baffling use 1 inch rigid fiberglass like they put around ductwork. Cover it with burlap or other porous cloth. This works good mounted on the ceilings or walls. I also like to use GoBo which is a covered piece of rigid fiberglass 2' x 4' or so. You can place these in the room as needed. Experiment.

As you place your baffling you will want to move your mics. Listen to the tapes and see what they tell you.

This will take place over many days/rehearsals/recording sessions. When you get a real good sounding tape listen to it critically. Now if the bass is still light or the guitar doesn't cut right you can think of adding an extra mic on the speaker cabinet. If possible record this into another channel so you can choose bass or guitar level in post production during the mixdown.

Cabinet mics can be omni or cardiod. Try different mics to get your sound. Placement of the mic can change the sound a lot too. Starting points are right on the grill, 6 inches back, and to one side of a speaker pointing towards the center of the cone. Experiment with headphones on and then make some test tapes of just the instrument being recorded.

Listen for the kick drum. Can you hear it good? Does it have a good sound? You can adjust the sound of the kick with tuning and with pillows or blankets in the bottom of the drum. You can close mic a kick drum right in front of the head facing the audience or, if the head has a hole in it, stick your mic right into the drum.

Another trick for the snare is to put a tshirt over the drum. This can make it a little softer and alter the sound a little bit.

If the vocals are not shining out or are muddy or difficult to hear try overdubbing the vocals part later, recording the band without the vocals. Or if you have another channel patch from the board to your recorder to get a seperate vocals channel. If you can't make the patch work with your equipment put a mic right on the pa to pick up the vocals.

If you are driving your pa so hard that it distorts just to hear the vocals you will never be able to fix that. Everyone just needs to turn down a little bit so you can hear the vocals without distortion. If you want distortion in your vocals that's an artistic choice I can disagree with but please get it from somewhere other than transistor clipping. I hate that noise. (and so does everybody else)

So from two dynamic omnis to all sorts of hints and tips. The two most important things to remember are

1. Listen

and

2. Experiment

And don't forget to have fun.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

Cross posted at MixRemix.
 
gibson59neck said:
we are looking for a basic way to mic the room and get our new ideas on tape. THAT IS IT -
Click to expand...

My recommendation is to keep it very simple. Either one or two omnidirectional mikes, put in the middle of your setup. One would get the job done. With two, try them with a separation of anything from 6 inches to, say, three feet apart. You can even use them crossed and overlapping, which will yield a basically solid, mono sound with very tiny amount of stereo ambience. You can use the dynamics like harrylarry suggests, or go with some of the cheap condenser omnis. The advantage of omnis is full frequency response and no proximity effect. You will basically get the sound in the room. Simple. Easy.

Cheers,

Otto
 
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