Is the singer single most important element of the song ?

[grimtraveller]

And for that "i always love you blah blah" part, that was simplification, man.

I'd say "oversimplification", especially if you take a band like Black Sabbath and consider that on their first 6 albums, they covered, in their lyrics, fear, the devil, hell, the judgement, the afterlife/eternity, temptation, magic, dreams, revenge, marijuana, LSD, DNA, heroin, cocaine, conception, childhood, the past, present and future, death, deception, drug addiction, overdoses, biblical reality, mythology, theology, domination, the horrors of war, poverty, the state of the world, work, politics, disease, medicine, women, children, family breakdown, youth culture, skinheads, violence, paternity suits, nuclear holocaust, pregnancy, rest, peace of mind, libido, unfaithfulness, sorrow, lovelessness, desire, class, armies, witchcraft, brainwashing, mental illness, paranoia, insanity, human nature, boredom, searching for meaning in life, tripping, societal caring, God, Jesus, the Pope, science, religion, comics, revenge, escapism, youth, manipulation, enlightenment, personal change and growth, peer pressure, the choice in salvation, revolution, rebellion, the peace movement, love, Eastern philosophy, transexual confusion, managerial hassles, lonliness, pollution, the environment, suicide, unreality and fantasy, broken relationships, Catholicism, Christianity, Satanism, religious cults, the occult, preachiness, self determination, marital bliss, sexual satisfaction, God's intention in creation, doubt, the disposability of fame, the media, the influence of movies, town planning, colonialism and slavery, recovery from depression, loss of vision/ clouding of judgement, schizophrenia and hope and these were not put across by the music but by the singer. Yet for the most part, it's the music that's remembered.

If any of these vocalists are singing, then Yes;

That's quite an illogical list. The compiler says "This list does not include persons who frequently share lead vocal duties with other members of a given music group (e.g. John Lennon of the Beatles)" but then goes on to list both Roger Waters and Dave Gilmour of Pink Floyd, while further illogicalizing matters by leaving out Rick Wright. They also leave out George Harrison, either as a Beatle or as a soloist. They leave out Ringo too, but then, it is Wikipaedia !

 

[Xdrummer]

Grim,

Your example of Sabbath is an interesting point - and I agree that many of the guitar hooks really stand out and many people now, 40 years later, could likely hum the guitar riff from "Iron Man" more readily than they could sing the lyrics (the same could be said for Deep Purple's "Smoke On The Water" riff).

That being said, I think it is reasonable to suggest that without lead vocals on either of those referenced songs - the records would not have gotten as much (if any) airplay, and thousand (perhaps millions) fewer people would have heard the songs or purchased the recordings - in which case, no one would be humming the melodies 40 years later.

So, could that not logically be interpreted to mean that the vocals were the most important element (even though the of instrumental elements (most significantly the guitar riffs) not only supported the vocal - but dramatically defined the feel of the song???

 

[folker]

I'd say "oversimplification", especially if you take a band like Black Sabbath and consider that on their first 6 albums, they covered, in their lyrics, fear, the devil, hell, the judgement, the afterlife/eternity, temptation, magic, dreams, revenge, marijuana, LSD, DNA, heroin, cocaine, conception, childhood, the past, present and future, death, deception, drug addiction, overdoses, biblical reality, mythology, theology, domination, the horrors of war, poverty, the state of the world, work, politics, disease, medicine, women, children, family breakdown, youth culture, skinheads, violence, paternity suits, nuclear holocaust, pregnancy, rest, peace of mind, libido, unfaithfulness, sorrow, lovelessness, desire, class, armies, witchcraft, brainwashing, mental illness, paranoia, insanity, human nature, boredom, searching for meaning in life, tripping, societal caring, God, Jesus, the Pope, science, religion, comics, revenge, escapism, youth, manipulation, enlightenment, personal change and growth, peer pressure, the choice in salvation, revolution, rebellion, the peace movement, love, Eastern philosophy, transexual confusion, managerial hassles, lonliness, pollution, the environment, suicide, unreality and fantasy, broken relationships, Catholicism, Christianity, Satanism, religious cults, the occult, preachiness, self determination, marital bliss, sexual satisfaction, God's intention in creation, doubt, the disposability of fame, the media, the influence of movies, town planning, colonialism and slavery, recovery from depression, loss of vision/ clouding of judgement, schizophrenia and hope and these were not put across by the music but by the singer. Yet for the most part, it's the music that's remembered.

That's quite an illogical list. The compiler says "This list does not include persons who frequently share lead vocal duties with other members of a given music group (e.g. John Lennon of the Beatles)" but then goes on to list both Roger Waters and Dave Gilmour of Pink Floyd, while further illogicalizing matters by leaving out Rick Wright. They also leave out George Harrison, either as a Beatle or as a soloist. They leave out Ringo too, but then, it is Wikipaedia !

hey, i was talking about what you hear in radio, good for you if they often play Black Sabbath where you live, but here it's all just general "top twenty" hits, sleazy local poprock, and senior aged stars from 80's.
All of those fit my oversimplication.

 

[nomadx]

Singing is definitely one thing fans will do along with a song, even if it's done poorly. Also, there is no air guitar karaoke.

 

[grimtraveller]

Singing is definitely one thing fans will do along with a song, even if it's done poorly.

Of that I have no doubt nor do I dispute it. That is a different matter from whether it's the most important element though. In my opinion, there isn't one. They all need each other to work.

Also, there is no air guitar karaoke.

Just google "Air guitar video" to see just how wrong you can be......

hey, i was talking about what you hear in radio, good for you if they often play Black Sabbath where you live, but here it's all just general "top twenty" hits, sleazy local poprock, and senior aged stars from 80's.
All of those fit my oversimplication.

So in other words, your whole premise is based, not on music in general, but just pop stuff that you happen to hear on the radio. In that case, there's no argument. You know what you hear so you can't help but be right. Which begs the question, why ask the question ?

I agree that many of the guitar hooks really stand out and many people now, 40 years later, could likely hum the guitar riff from "Iron Man" more readily than they could sing the lyrics (the same could be said for Deep Purple's "Smoke On The Water" riff).

That being said, I think it is reasonable to suggest that without lead vocals on either of those referenced songs - the records would not have gotten as much (if any) airplay, and thousand (perhaps millions) fewer people would have heard the songs or purchased the recordings - in which case, no one would be humming the melodies 40 years later.

So, could that not logically be interpreted to mean that the vocals were the most important element (even though the of instrumental elements (most significantly the guitar riffs) not only supported the vocal - but dramatically defined the feel of the song???

Yes, it could be.
Bear in mind though, that one of the big criticisms levelled against {whether real or imagined} alot of rock in, say, the late 60s and 70s was "those long 20 year solos" {right this moment I've just heard Ray Davies say that in "Village Green Preservation society" he wanted to give Americans something other than 25 minute guitar solos ! }......Punk in mid to late 70s Britain didn't cause ripples and fear among the rock establishment because of it's vocal prowess.
I enjoy the debate but I guess it's a circular one.
What I really want to know about singers is why they don't use pop shields live ?

 

[Rod Norman]

It's not best to isolate one element as "the most important element". Here's my advice. Pull up the bass and drums. Balance them volume-wise. Then pull up the vocals. Do the same. Trust your tracking and leave the eq alone for now. Bring up the next instrument that does chords. Blend it in gently, just enough to identify the changes. Now bring in the others. I always cut and paste solos to a separate trak so I can set them at their appropriate volume, forward in the mix. Once the song sounds right, You can get a book or article on eq, and get the drums and bass first, then the others if they really need it. Never do eq on tracks alone. Things change when you get them all together. So the answer to your question is No. The SONG is the most important element.

 

[davem12758]

Well,,,,,,,American Idol would like for everyone to think so..............

 

[BroKen_H]

Just a personal note. The bands I played with in Denver had the look, had the sound, had great writing, great musicians, but we never went anywhere until we found the voice. When he decided to get a real job with his girlfriend's daddy's business, it was pretty much over and out. I've since become a lot better with vocals, but I'm still not a "take note" singer. People like to hear me sing, but I'm never going to make it as a vocalist! You've got to have the voice. Everything else is secondary. Sorry!

As far as the mix goes, my personal opinion is that if all the elements are there (starting with a great voice), the most important, must be heard element (at least in rock and country) is the snare. Your vocalist has to share frontline with the snare. Using eq to pump the snare in a nice slot that's separate from the slot where your vocals sit will make your mix much easier. Bear in mind, if you find the niche frequencies for all your tracks you can use subtractive eq to bring things UP in the mix. It's not always best to raise the guitar when you don't hear it like you want, sometimes it's better to take away from the surrounding (or harmonic) frequencies to bring it more to the forefront.

 

[BroKen_H]

BTW just for the record, let's not forget a lot of good jazz, dixieland, classical, honky tonk, etc. has no vocal. Also never heard a Dixie Dregs album I didn't like. Lots of good music out there with none, but not many examples of pop hits with no vocal...Frankenstein from Edgar Winter Group and ??? what else?

 

[ido1957]

I think vocals are the most important thing - in a song with vocals.