Is bass modeling necessary?

bluedaffy

bluedaffy

New member
Well, let's hear it.

I'm currently working on mixing my first real album. I've "mixed" personal projects before when I was in my teens, but it was rarely more than just moving around the faders.

The reason I ask this question is because I often wonder if a bass part does not need overdrive, distortion or something like that from a modeler, and is intended to be clean and clear, what would be the benefit of using an amp modeler over recording bass thru a DI with just some compression and eq? Is it just another cook in the kitchen? what are the benefits from a modeler? I find myself inserting a modeler because I feel like it's supposed to be done, but I don't know why.
 
'Ready made tones?
IDK, one way to look at it is you get things set for your best guess as to how it needs to sound. Everytings just more or less a pile of tools and you use what you need.
How 'real, 'direct do you want to go? How real can you go :)
And sometimes a box is offering 'ten things and job one is to turn nine of them off to get to what's wanted.
 
I always left my bass clean for the longest time. But my bass sounds were always anemic (then again, it could be the player :P ). Then I got hold of the Bohemian Rhapsody multi-tracks. Now the bass on there is plenty clean, especially during the ballad. Then you hear the solo bass and....its overdriven. But in the mix, you don't hear "the fuzz."

I was fascinated with this, so I put a bit of digital overdrive on my bass parts, where you can hear it solo but not in the mix. And my bass parts became alive, you could actually make out the bass, without it getting 'louder' or without hearing the distortion. It was magic.

Not sure if this is helpful for your question, but it is food for thought.

EDIT: I record DI straight into an RNP, so its about as clean you can get on the front end.
 
It depends on the material, IMO.

Rock often benefits from a good dose of overdrive whereas jazz might suffer. A lot of African players would be horrified if you added distortion to their bass because they tend to like a very smooth, subby, clean sound. This is indicative of the styles they play which has jazz, traditional and gospel influences. Think Yamaha six strings.

However, yes, a direct bass sounds great in a lot of contexts, particularly if you're going for a cleaner, rounder mix. There's nothing wrong with using just the direct sound with a bit of EQ and compression and if it works with what you're doing, then more power to ya.

I am generally in favour of the less processing the better.

Cheers :)
 
+1 to anyone who said that it depends on the sound you need. Any audio decision is done in three steps

1. Listen to what you have
2. Envision what it needs to be
3. Process what you have with what ever it takes to make it what it needs to be.

That is all there is to it. Never feel you have to process something "just because". Especially with modellers, a few years ago, they didn't exist and weren't even an option. They couldn't possibly be mandatory.
 
Thanks for the insights and opinions. The only reason I ask is because I am the guitar player for the album and for the few direct-in guitar tracks I have, a modeler is necessary, otherwise... well you know what a guitar sounds like unaffected. Not a guitar. For bass however I never thought it necessary in the same way, but it didn't matter because if a dry DI guitar gets a modeler, then so should a bass! I think I'm going to go back to some mixes and pull off the modeler and see what I can do with the dry sound, we used a stingray and I really like the dry sound of it. Also, all I have to play with bass sounds is Ampire XT (I use Studio One Professional) & Guitar Rig 4.

Side tangent- Anybody have any settings that they are very pleased with using one or both of those plug-ins?
 
I just go DI with bass guitar....BUT....I can adjust how much drive/grit I want at the front-end preamp, and I can change preamps from SS to tube, and sometimes I also use a limiter, sometimes I don't....though all of this is done at the front-end in the analog domain, not via modeler.
Most times I prefer cleaner bass tones, with maybe just a bit of hair on them, but a lot of that is how hard I play the bass too. I also use my bass with flat-wounds in a heavier gauge for most bass tracks, over my other one that has lighter, round-wounds...so I can get a really thick tone with the flat-wounds.
 
I'm a bass player and I have never liked any distortion on my bass ..... pure clean is what I go for and I have played in plenty of rock bands.

So I'm gonna go with: "It's a matter of personal taste."
 
I use a sansamp for direct recording of electric bass. In post prod, I may add some distortion to the tracks but not much usually for a basic rock mix. Just enough to give the bass some hair. I usually copy the bass track and process one with distortion and keep the other clean and mix to taste.
 
I suggest you continue to record bass clean, and tweak it post to your ear's content. In my opinion, processing on the way in is reserved for situations where you know in advance you won't be able to get what you're after with single or multiple processing passes after the fact, compression being a prime contender. Once you have a solid feel for what your post options are, it will become second nature to lay the proper groundwork for recording without painting yourself into any corners you can't undo later.
 
Processing bass signal through cab sims for clean parts can be good obviously if you wanted close to a "real bass amp" sound by running it through cabinet only sims like recabinet or just turning off the head sim and keeping on the cab sound through an amp simulator. That's just personally what I have found to get pretty cool results with the DI signal as far as clean processing.
 
Seafroggys said:
I always left my bass clean for the longest time. But my bass sounds were always anemic (then again, it could be the player :P ). Then I got hold of the Bohemian Rhapsody multi-tracks. Now the bass on there is plenty clean, especially during the ballad. Then you hear the solo bass and....its overdriven. But in the mix, you don't hear "the fuzz."

I was fascinated with this, so I put a bit of digital overdrive on my bass parts, where you can hear it solo but not in the mix. And my bass parts became alive, you could actually make out the bass, without it getting 'louder' or without hearing the distortion. It was magic.

Not sure if this is helpful for your question, but it is food for thought.

EDIT: I record DI straight into an RNP, so its about as clean you can get on the front end.
Click to expand...

+1 to that. I record the bass clean and then run it through ampeg SVX. Sometimes I bus the bass and when the guitar gets distortion the bass gets some too. I think it helps give the bass more volume/impact without stepping on everything else. Here is a song I mixed where I added a lot of fuzz on the chorus and I think it worked out well: All This Restraint | Primate House
 
I think the "subtle distortion" trick works because of the inherent compression by the distortion, and not so much because of the changes in the overtones. This, I believe, is why people don't "hear the distortion" in the mix, but hear the bass sound improving when they add distortion. The altered overtones are subtle enough not to be heard, but the compression is very real and audible. I think most people like an extremely compressed bass sound, but somehow many mix engineers don't seem to add enough compression, maybe out of fear of over-compression?

Think about it... you see a lot of bass limiter pedals around, and not many guitar limiter pedals. Why? Because bass limiting (which is basically extreme compression) makes the sound better to a lot of ears, while guitar limiting loses too much dynamics. Most people like dynamics in music, but only in the mids/highs, and not much in the bass frequencies.

In most amps and speaker cones, the natural compression is quite similar to heavy compressing/limiting, and I believe that's also why amping/modelling may help a bass sound.

In a nutshell, subtle distortion / amp modelling are both means to the same end. If you want to improve the bass sound, compress it with a high-ratio/limit it. Or if you have the patience, go through the bassline note by note and make all the notes similar volume. And then additionally, maybe use a compressor to affect the envelope and decay as required. A steady volume in the bass region gives a song good solid support, and makes the bass in the song "come alive". And of course, I'm talking about general pop and rock music only :)
 
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Here comes two pennies from a "first poster". I, too, am a guitarist by trade. I also play bass, keys, drums, and sing (the proverbial one-man band). I'm in my mid-40's, used to work as a professional musician (back in the late 80's and early 90's), and had only done analog recordings up until 18 months ago when I decided to start writing again. I blew a boatload (actually more like a small to mid-sized cruise ship) of cash setting up a studio in my house, and the one thing that initially drove me nuts was my recorded bass sounds. Everything I do is direct, in regards to bass. Then I pulled out a simple little trick I used back in the analog days. This trick is now made even easier in the digital age.

Record your bass direct (DI box>preamp>interface>DAW). After you record, make a duplicate copy. Since DI sound tends to give a brighter sound, use the DI track to bring out the presence, definition, and "cut through the mix" tone of your bass. Now take the duplicate track, and use a bass modeler (I use Waves GTR for bass tracks) to get the low-end grunt and bottom end. Blend the two together in your mix until the proper balance is achieved to give grunt and cut through to its own place in your mix. You shouldn't have phase issues (but double-check, of course) and it should give you a well-rounded sound.

It works for my type of music (Progressive Alternative, for lack of a better description) on a 5-string Ibanez Soundgear that is frequently having the low-B string tickled, and I'm sure the application could be used for any genre. I hope this helps you, because I know how frustrated I was getting last year!

Happy Trails!

EDIT: I lied! I don't remember posting on here before, but apparently I did two previous times. The server never lies!
 
Whatever your client is paying for.... If they want plastic bass they get plastic bass. You better play better than studio guys... Hard Fact..
 
I was responding to an earlier post, but now I am so pissed that if I reply to a post its not a full reply........ Not the Aussie connotation of pissed but anger connotation.
 
I think it's a matter of taste as well. I personally find hardware to work better for me than software with bass.

So for me it's fresh set of STEEL strings, Fender American Jazz, BBE Bmax, Alesis 3630 in the loop.

When I can I do an amp if it sounds better in the song, but I don't own one at the moment.

I honestly have never been a fan of the straight in compressed bass sound. I imagine that would change if I had a nice DI like the U5 or a good ch strip.
 
jarupert said:
Here comes two pennies from a "first poster". I, too, am a guitarist by trade. I also play bass, keys, drums, and sing (the proverbial one-man band). I'm in my mid-40's, used to work as a professional musician (back in the late 80's and early 90's), and had only done analog recordings up until 18 months ago when I decided to start writing again. I blew a boatload (actually more like a small to mid-sized cruise ship) of cash setting up a studio in my house, and the one thing that initially drove me nuts was my recorded bass sounds. Everything I do is direct, in regards to bass. Then I pulled out a simple little trick I used back in the analog days. This trick is now made even easier in the digital age.

Record your bass direct (DI box>preamp>interface>DAW). After you record, make a duplicate copy. Since DI sound tends to give a brighter sound, use the DI track to bring out the presence, definition, and "cut through the mix" tone of your bass. Now take the duplicate track, and use a bass modeler (I use Waves GTR for bass tracks) to get the low-end grunt and bottom end. Blend the two together in your mix until the proper balance is achieved to give grunt and cut through to its own place in your mix. You shouldn't have phase issues (but double-check, of course) and it should give you a well-rounded sound.

It works for my type of music (Progressive Alternative, for lack of a better description) on a 5-string Ibanez Soundgear that is frequently having the low-B string tickled, and I'm sure the application could be used for any genre. I hope this helps you, because I know how frustrated I was getting last year!

Happy Trails!

EDIT: I lied! I don't remember posting on here before, but apparently I did two previous times. The server never lies!
Click to expand...
Welcome ..er, back then :)
 
As long as your recorded bass is clean, you can manipulate that to whatever you feel is appropriate. But you may wanna tell the bass player how to improve his tone.
 
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