introduction and quick question on combining mixer and USB interface

R

rfalcon

New member
Recently retired, and I figured to improve my somewhat average musical skills by recording and evaluation. Did TV and radio production work in college (back when a portable TV cam was two parts, and each part weighed about 30 lbs lol) so Im familiar with a mixer, overdubbing, etc, and have occasionally run the sound board at church. Have a lot to learn, however, and now have the time to do so.

Instruments are numerous acoustical and one high top electric guitar, and several MIDI capable keyboards, a Marshall acoustic amp, a cheap dynamic mic and a Blue Yeti USB mic. Recording on a Mac Book Pro. Have an old Phonic MM1002 mixer and just picked up a Focusrite 6i6. Spent yesterday with various configurations of recording guitars - straight plug in of guitar into 6i6, line out from the amp, and mic-ing the amp. Yes, I'll need some mics.

Now that Ive introduced my basic knowledge, a quick question - if I run the mixer through the 6i6, is there any danger of damaging the USB interface? I haven't any specific reason for doing so at the moment, but I'm experimenting and want to be cautious. Perhaps someone could offer opinions on advantages and disadvantages of doing so. No electrician, but I have some basic understanding of electronics. I'm also a quick study on most topics - except languages lol.

I also don't mind investing in gear, as my son is a professional vocalist and actor. Anything I don't use he'll inherit. Yes also the reason I have no mics...

well, thanks in advance for any advice. Im looking forward to learning a great deal here.
 
Hey rfalcon....welcome to our world!! Assuming the Phonic has line level outputs......and I assume it does....there should be no problem routing them (either left and right or just either one) to the 6i6. As you mention........you may not even have a reason to do it that way......but you could if you wanted to. Spend some time going through the various threads here. There's a ton a of knowledge to be had. Sounds like your basic knowledge is going to pint you in the right direction................so have fun and let us know how it's going!!
 
Thanks for the welcome, Mickster. spent some time today reading a few books, then ran the signal from my arch top through the preamps in the Phonic and the 6i6, listening to the sound in headphones: the Phonic provided a stronger output that also sounded cleaner. Im considering running from the Phonic mains to the 3/4 jacks in the 6i6 for stereo. Will play with that tomorrow.
 
Don't know if anyone's interested, but I did run the the Phonic through the 6i6 and it works well. First, hooked several guitars into the mic inputs on the Phonic. Plugged in headphones and adjusted the gain and level settings as high as possible without distortion. Got a strong clean sound. Then ran cables from the L/R mains into the 3/4 inputs on the 6i6. Plugged in the headphones and checked the sounds and adjusted the gain so I wasn't getting distortions at that location either. Finally plugged in the computer, and using Ableton Live lite assigned two channels - combined in stereo - to the 6i6s 3/4 channels. Got a strong, clear and natural sounding signal. Better than I had hoped for. And making adjustments on the mixer was easier for me personally than doing so in the software. So I plan to keep this setup, and run everything through the mixer for ease of control. Only the MIDI from the keyboard or piano will by pass the Phonic. Should be able to keep everything permantly plugged in without too many adjustment changes being necessary.
 
rfalcon said:
adjusted the gain and level settings as high as possible without distortion.
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One thing has changed over the years, noise floors have gotten lower. You don't need to run levels on the verge of overload to stay over the noise. The 0dB mark on the meter is your target. It should be on much of the time but don't light up the +10dB LED too much.
 
Hi rfalcon and welcome. Was going to suggest you run the Phonic* into 3/4 on the F'rite but you beat me to it!

You need have no concerns about feeding the AI from the mixer, the line inputs clip at +28dBu, that's nearly 20V rms and I doubt that wee mixer can get close to that! BTW, if that last set of numbers and letters was Ggook to you, THAT is a good place to brush up your electro-acustics larnin'!

Mics? Everyone should have at least one Shure SM57 I guess! (good on guitar amps and other loud sources). Couple (matched pair if you can run to it) of Small Diaphragm Capacitors. Very versatile but most favoured for acoustic instruments, especially guitar. For vocals the standard is a Large D cap mic, but choice is very personal and can be down to what suits a certain voice. Take heed of the experts here (not I!) and read all you can....Probably an area where spending a fair wedge is worthwhile? Think on.

Don't recall what the meters are like in Abe L but as other have said, keep those tracking levels down. -18Dbfs even -20 is plenty. This also means not running the mixer too hot. I doubt the "0 vu" LED needs to light very often.

I have the very similar AI, the 8i6. If you get good with the MixControl software, give us a clue!

*Phonic used to have a bad name in the trade, even worse than Behringer! But you seem to have got a good 'un? This can be typical of budget gear. One bod gets a Friday afternoon build and the mark is forever damned!

Dave.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
One thing has changed over the years, noise floors have gotten lower. You don't need to run levels on the verge of overload to stay over the noise. The 0dB mark on the meter is your target. It should be on much of the time but don't light up the +10dB LED too much.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. After reading, I played with the levels and brought them in lower (about -13) when DIing a 12 string acoustic on two channels. Much cleaner, distinct sound; less muddy. Also started the tutorial on Ableton Live, so I added compression and EQ. I like what I'm hearing, quality wise. So thanks again - it made a huge difference.
 
ecc83 said:
Hi rfalcon and welcome. Was going to suggest you run the Phonic* into 3/4 on the F'rite but you beat me to it!

You need have no concerns about feeding the AI from the mixer, the line inputs clip at +28dBu, that's nearly 20V rms and I doubt that wee mixer can get close to that! BTW, if that last set of numbers and letters was Ggook to you, THAT is a good place to brush up your electro-acustics larnin'!
Click to expand...

Several days ago it wouldn't have made much sense to me, but I found several good books at the library and some nice websites lol.

Mics? Everyone should have at least one Shure SM57 I guess! (good on guitar amps and other loud sources). Couple (matched pair if you can run to it) of Small Diaphragm Capacitors. Very versatile but most favoured for acoustic instruments, especially guitar. For vocals the standard is a Large D cap mic, but choice is very personal and can be down to what suits a certain voice. Take heed of the experts here (not I!) and read all you can....Probably an area where spending a fair wedge is worthwhile? Think on.
Click to expand...

I'm liking DI from the acoustics, as well as from the arch top, though I suspect I'm going to want to try reamping. Also have a nylon string guitar I might want to mic. And anything that will make my mediocre vocals sound better *grin*. I'd like to find reasonable priced quality - not sure what the price point would be to get nice equipment without treading into the 'paying just for the name' territory. Hoping y'all will help me out there.

Don't recall what the meters are like in Abe L but as other have said, keep those tracking levels down. -18Dbfs even -20 is plenty. This also means not running the mixer too hot. I doubt the "0 vu" LED needs to light very often.

I have the very similar AI, the 8i6. If you get good with the MixControl software, give us a clue!
Click to expand...

Meters on the phonic have two green, two yellow, and red. I keep each input flashing on the first green - no idea what the reading actually is. Its more than sufficient, though. Right now I'm running the light version of LIVE, enough to learn on. The concepts don't seem that tough, but I know the reality of it's going to bite me. Just trying not to overdo things.

*Phonic used to have a bad name in the trade, even worse than Behringer! But you seem to have got a good 'un? This can be typical of budget gear. One bod gets a Friday afternoon build and the mark is forever damned!

Dave.
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Just may be my ears' not good enough to distinguish finer points. In time, I'll learn what's necessary and upgrade as I go. Appreciate the advice.
 
rfalcon said:
Need to buy more cables....
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Can never have enough! Don't pay silly money tho. For strictly home use very cheap ones off The Zon will serve you perfectly well. For gigging you would need to pay more for more rugged cable and especially connectors.

Same goes for mic stands, $20 buys you something very serviceable. You don't need many big ones either. If you sit down to sing or play there are some nifty 1/2 height stands. I have a couple with a heavy solid base instead of a tripod, handy in my small, over stuffed room.

Re-amping? You can easily make your own device but also check out Orchid Electronics, super value.

Nylon stringer? Look for mics with a very low noise figure. Most "budget" cap mics are in the 16-20dB region, look for sub 10dB. The Rode range are known for very low self noise. Then again, I am sure a Top Guy here can suggest something.

Dave.
 
Thanks Dave. I also have a lot of photo equipment - light stands, boom arms, etc - which I can cross purpose. Might be overkill, as they were designed for heavy light heads, but they'll work.

Been looking at mics, and it appears about $300 per is the area I'm looking at for a condenser for vocals. Shure M27(?) seems to be going for about $299. Wish I could find one which has a selectable pattern, which might be nice for flexibility down the the road.

Need to learn more about reamping - I was under the opinion it could be done in the mixing software, without need for a device; just run a DI signal through the amp and rerecord. Ive so much to learn I'm not even sure which questions to ask yet. Fortunately, I enjoy learning.

I'll check out Orchid Electronics. Thanks for the time you're taking.
 
You can reamp without a "device" but there are difficulties.

Essentially you are taking a recorded signal from the PC and feeding the input of an amp to then capture the characteristics of said amp (you can also play with amp settings, mic types and positions ad.inf!).

Problem one: The signal from the AI might be too hot for the amp (gitamps usually want about -40dBu) and make setting a clean level difficult.

Problem two: Hum, aka ground, aka earth loop. AI is earthed via PC and amp is earthed via mains...Bzzzz! One fix often works, diss' the earth from the AI end of the cable...NEVER REMOVE MAINS SAFETY EARTHS!!!

A reamp device takes care of both attenuation and earth isolation for you.

And, err, I am sure Shure make perfectly good capacitor mics? Just not KNOWN for it!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
You can reamp without a "device" but there are difficulties.

Essentially you are taking a recorded signal from the PC and feeding the input of an amp to then capture the characteristics of said amp (you can also play with amp settings, mic types and positions ad.inf!).

Problem one: The signal from the AI might be too hot for the amp (gitamps usually want about -40dBu) and make setting a clean level difficult.

Problem two: Hum, aka ground, aka earth loop. AI is earthed via PC and amp is earthed via mains...Bzzzz! One fix often works, diss' the earth from the AI end of the cable...NEVER REMOVE MAINS SAFETY EARTHS!!!

A reamp device takes care of both attenuation and earth isolation for you.

And, err, I am sure Shure make perfectly good capacitor mics? Just not KNOWN for it!

Dave.
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Thanks for the excellent rundown. I probably need to review the type of mikes again. Sounds like I made a newbie error and don't realize it...
 
rfalcon said:
... OK, after a little research, I guess capacitor mikes and condenser mikes are the same thing.
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Yes, sorry. They are commonly called condenser mics by many on this forum but over here the term was out of use when I started day release tech' college electronics at 16. I am now 70!

Dave.
 
rfalcon said:
... OK, after a little research, I guess capacitor mikes and condenser mikes are the same thing.
Click to expand...

Thats the windmill that Dave jilts with, LOL. They standard term was and still is Condenser Microphone. Go into any warehouse and look at the stock of microphones, you will not see a box in there labelled capacitor mic. Unfortunately it can cause problems, especially in a newbie forum. But he means well.
 
mdainsd said:
Thats the windmill that Dave jilts with, LOL. They standard term was and still is Condenser Microphone. Go into any warehouse and look at the stock of microphones, you will not see a box in there labelled capacitor mic. Unfortunately it can cause problems, especially in a newbie forum. But he means well.
Click to expand...

You are of course quite right! I am a product of the "quality" politically correct audio press of the seventies when they tried to be entirely SI units (38cms tape machines) and since no engineer any longer called the things in radio sets "condensers" it was entirely correct and logical that microphones based on the principle be given the "modern" name.

A serious attempt was even made to eradicate 600 Ohms and the dBm (as it was then) regrettably we still have dBu and dBV co-existing to further confound the newb. At least the dBm was based on actual science unlike that surviving mathematical absurdity the "rms watt!

Dave.
 
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