intonation??

whjr15

New member
ok, so heres my problem....

on one of my guitars (squier strat lol) theres a problem with it being in tune in some places... like i can tune it to eadgbe, then play open e and have it be fine.... but if i were to play an open d, it sounds like shit.

ive narrowed it down to the G string.. (no pun intended lol) because i can get it in tune to play an open d powerchord, but the farther i go up the neck, the flatter the pitch gets...

i just checked it with a tuner, and after tuning it to g, i play the 12th fret g, and its already a half step off.

anyway to fix this at home?? i dont wanna spend money on this guitar, as it is just a squier... but it still pisses me off lol...

i tried raising and lowering the things on the bridge, having no success... the only thing i havent tried is messin with the neck adjustment. could this be the culpret??

thanks

-joe
 
whjr15 said:
i tried raising and lowering the things on the bridge, having no success... the only thing i havent tried is messin with the neck adjustment. could this be the culpret??

Instead of raising and lowering things, you need to move some things back and forth ;)
 
haha thanks.. that did the trick.... but now a different problem has surfaced....

i can now play a major chord with the root note on low E (with EVERYTHING in tune), but if i move directly up to the a, its all outta whack...

ex: a major playing on 5th fret of low E is perfect, but if i go up to a D powerchord on the a string, the g string is still f'd up.... what the hell is going on?!?!?! lol

i dont understand how it can be perfectly in tune for all major chords starting on low E, but be flat on every powerchord on A-- from B on up.
:confused: :confused:
 
whjr15 said:
haha thanks.. that did the trick.... but now a different problem has surfaced....

i can now play a major chord with the root note on low E (with EVERYTHING in tune), but if i move directly up to the a, its all outta whack...

ex: a major playing on 5th fret of low E is perfect, but if i go up to a D powerchord on the a string, the g string is still f'd up.... what the hell is going on?!?!?! lol

i dont understand how it can be perfectly in tune for all major chords starting on low E, but be flat on every powerchord on A-- from B on up.
:confused: :confused:

Well, hard to say. Either the tuning of the G string or the intonation is still off. If the open E major chord sounds really good, you probably have a perfect third from E to G#. Unfortunately that's not equal temperament, you have to raise the pitch of the G string a little to get an acceptable octave in an open A chord.

But that is a fairly subtle problem. I suspect your intonation is still off.
 
yeah it is......damnit


lol what do i do now??? the "slider" thing is pushed back as far as the sping will let it go. is there anything else i could do... maybe get slightly bigger gauge strings??

sorry, im new to all this intonation stuff.. this is the first time ive ever had a problem with it.
 
Here's the deal:

When you fret a note, you are stretching the string. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so when you force the string to go from the bridge saddle, to a fret, to the nut, it has to get longer. Stretching a string, will, of course, make it higher-pitched. The frets are all placed 1/18 (more like 17.819etc., but who's counting?) of the distance from the previous fret to the bridge.

Still with me? Good. So you know that different gauge strings need to be bent different distances to reach the same pitch? Try it, a set of .009's is easy to bend, but you have to use up a ton of fretboard to reach a given pitch, compared to say, a set of .011's on the same guitar. Trust me, it's true.

So now, the fun part. Depending on where you fret, you are stretching the string a different distance. At the first fret, you are usually going the least distance, at the last fret, about the most (assuming your action gets progressively higher as you head towards the bridge, which is almost always true). As suggested in the previous paragraph, the degree to which you are stretching a string to fret it varies on a given fret, depending on the gauge/tension of the string. Therefore, the 1/18th rule for positioning frets [b[]cannot[/b] result in a correctly intonated guitar!

So, now on to your example. Your thong, er, G string, is getting flatter towards the bridge. An easy fix, detune the string until it's floppy, loosen the screw on the back of the trem so that the saddle moves towards the nut (shorter means sharper), retune, and check the higher frets. Repeat until the 12th and higher frets are behaving themselves pretty well, and again for the other strings.

Now would be a good time to check for relief, just on principal. Fret the first and last fret, and peak at the space between the string and seventh fret. You'd like to see just a bit of light, somewhere around .009 to .011. You probably have strings that size, use one as a gauge. If you have too much relief, tighten the truss rod maybe 1/8th a turn, and let it sit overnight. It will take a while for the adjustment to settle in, and if you strip or break the rod, you're all done. The truss rod should turn smoothly, but with some tension. It will help to loosen the strings, or bend the neck forward as you tighten. If the nut seems stuck, you're probably out of adjustment, and it will need a luthier to fiddle with it.

On most guitars, the nut slots are not cut deep enough, which prevents open string buzzing, but also causes sharp notes near the nut. Ideally, you would cut the slots deeper, so that the first frets are pretty much in tune, the depth of the nut slots will affect the first five or so frets far more than saddle adjustment, and trying to get these frets intonated from the saddles will screw up the intonation starting at the 12th fret or so.

I know, nobody has the unique files required to cut nut slots. Neither do I.

Option one, intonate for the first few frets, and live with it. If your initials are Malcom Young, this will be fine. Option two, adjust the intonation so the 12th fret harmonic is the exact same note as the 12th fretted fret. You'll be a bit out at both ends, but not felonously so. If you have another guitar player, you may be noticably off-pitch when the two of you are at opposite ends of the board. Option three, cough up the money for a pro set-up. He should get the nut right the first time, and you will be fine forever, as long as you don't change string gauges. Option four, cough up the loot for fret files, and go slowly. If you cut too deep, and go sharp or get buzzing, fill in the slot with a little super glue or epoxy, and start over.

Also keep in mind, that you are never going to completely intonate the guitar, it's impossible. You will be a bit out here and there, but hopefully, you won't be wildly out at adjacent notes, so you can play barre chords wherever you want. Guitar oriented music has evolved around the parts of the fretboard, and types of chords that are reasonably intonated, and avoiding the trouble spots. The Buzz Feiten system uses a compesated nut, and specially mistuned open strings to create a very nearly in-tune instrument, but it hasn't been used by enough people long enough to unleash the entire freboard.

Simple, right?
 
What kind of tuner are you doing this with?

If you have a good tuner, pop a harmonic on the 12th fret and tune the string to the proper note. Now fret the note at the 12th fret. Are they exactly the same? If they are, the intonation is right. If the fretted note is higher (sharp) move the saddle away from the neck (make the string longer) If the fretted note is lower (flat) move the saddle towards the neck (make the string shorter.
 
thanks A LOT guys... thanks to you, my P.O.S. squier works just fine now!!!

...and now i know how to fix it if it ever gets outta whack again... i learn something new everyday from this site. :D

thanks again everyone

-joe
 
Farview said:
What kind of tuner are you doing this with?

If you have a good tuner

Define "good tuner". More specifically, is a strobe tuner a necessity or a better tool for accurate intonation?
 
An important thing to remember is to change strings before making all these adjustments. Over-compensating for a dead string will just make it go out of whack again when you put a new one on.

I adjust intonation when I install new strings, then re-adjust after they get kind of crappy.(I'm cheap and don't change strings often enough.) When I used to gig steady (4-5 nights a week), I just changed them every week and avoided the tuning hassles.
 
A better term for a "good tuner" might be an "accurate tuner." Some tuners are within 3 cents more or less while some are within .03 cent. For those who don't know, 100 cents is one full semitone (1 fret on guitar.) These variations are why it is important for everyone to use the same tuner, especially for recording. As already mentioned, perfect intonation (everywhere on the fretboard) is impossible, there is some physics to explain this but it is too complicated to get into here, so you have to make some allowances and set the intonation so it sounds the best for your style and main playing position. A strobe tuner is the ideal tool for setting intonation but a good tuner is likely to be accurate enough for most playing purposes. The average person has a hard time distinguishing tonal variations of less than two or three cents (some of us are a bit more of perfectionists) so get the intonation as cloce as you can and if it still dosen't sound right, take your guitar into a shop and get is set up.
 
ez_willis said:
Define "good tuner". More specifically, is a strobe tuner a necessity or a better tool for accurate intonation?
For purposes of intonation:
If it cost you $15 at Guitar Center, it's not a good tuner.
If it is hand held and has an analog meter, it's not a good tuner
If it's made of plastic and has the word 'banana' on it, you might be a redn...um, it's not a good tuner.

You don't need a strobe tuner, but it does need to be accuarate.
 
ez_willis said:
Define "good tuner". More specifically, is a strobe tuner a necessity or a better tool for accurate intonation?

A strobe tuner is more accurate, and therefore better, for setting intonation. However, if your intonation is so far out that it's obvious on a cheap tuner, then you can at least use the cheap tuner to make it better.
 
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