Intonation Problem?

Editor

Editor

New member
OK, short story to explain. I have an old No-Name Strat copy ... had to sell my REAL Strat & Les Paul & Marshall (long story ... involves paying a mortgage and a woman ;-) ...that I am trying to coax some life out of.

Even though I have been out of the music picture ,as it were, for a while now, I still have the urge to PLAY! I refinished the wood, redid the wiring & pickups...put in a single coil bridge, single coil centre and a humbucker in the bridge position-- looks good to me & the wiring works fine.

Problem: Last week, I disassembled everything to do the wiring...put it back together ... new strings ... set up the intonation .. check the wiring ... everything good. Decided to throw in a humbucker in the centre position so I took everything apart. Put it back together. New strings ... intonation seems good ... BUT ...

... now when I fret a note on any string, I hear a second overtone that seems to be a semitone below the fretted one ... very sour ... YUCCCHHH!

It may have always sounded this way but since I did a pretty good job of shielding (see GUITARNUTS.COM), I am now getting a lot more tone (& overtone) out of the beast.

I set the action quite a bit higher than I am used to and made sure the strings are not contacting the pickup covers ... all the obvious things... but no improvement. The neck looks bowed ... not warped ... very high action around the 12th fret & low around the 1st.

I am thinking I should try shimming the bolt-on neck joint before playing with the truss rod to try & get rid of the extra overtone. Good idea? Anything else I should look for?

Chris
 
Take it to a good repair shop. It sounds to me like it needs a good setup, which (in my shop) would run you about $75. It is impossible for me to evaluate the geometry of a guitar without having it in my hands, and though some people will tell you they think they know the problem, but there are hundreds of possible, and what has worked for one person in one situation may not work from you in another situation.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Hey Minneapolis! Neighbours ... well ... sort of ... if you have a $100 for gas & 8 hours to spare for the drive ;-)

Take it to a good repair shop.

Good advice & obviously from one in the know but the guitar isn't worth that kind of attention. I know it needs machine heads, a new bridge, etc., etc. $$$$$$ If I had any to spend, I'd pick up a used axe worth fixing. It's a hobby project right now. If it breaks while I'm trying to fix it, no loss.

I do like to tinker though & I like a good challenge. If there's any insight you can give me, I'd appreciate it :)

Thanks Light
 
The question is not whether or not the guitar is worth it, but whether or not YOU are worth it. A setup is relatively cheap, and will make the guitar play much better. If what you want is to play guitar, then get it setup right, by someone who knows what they are doing. If what you want is to learn guitar repair, go to the Stew-Mac website, and buy a book. There are a number of very good books. The ones by Dan Erlewine are best known, and he is very good. The only problem with Dan is he relies a bit heavily on special tools, so his methods can be a little expensive. Also, go look at Frank Ford's Website, though it is more focused on acoustic guitars. Frank also uses fewer specialized tools, but his methods tend to rely more on his thirty years of experience, so they are more difficult for beginners. At our shop, we fall somewhere in between the two, as do most shops.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light....
I thought that this place was here so people could learn about what they are doing with their instruments, recording hardware and software, and all that.

It seems like every time someone has a problem with a guitar, rather than giving them advice on how to fix the problem themselves, you direct them to the local shop to fix it for them.

While at times this is good advice, such as when someone breaks a headstock off of a Rickenbacher or LP, a setup is not a difficult job to do. Nor is an intonation. It ain't rocket science. With a few really simple tools and a decent tuner, and a bit of handyness, and a guy/gal can maintain his own guitar. Especially a guitar as simple as a strat.

Yet, regardless of the problem, you come off like nobody but the guy with a shop should be turning a screw on a guitar.

I know you own a shop. I have no problem with that. But theres no way that shops are the only answer to every problem that ever comes up.

I think people would be better served if they knew how to fix their own guitar, especially something as easy as a setup or intonation on a strat. Telling them to pay $75 for something they can do in an hour or two on their own is no service. Thats plugging your own industry, and making it look like you are the only one who can do it properly.

And just so you know, I worked for years as a guitar tech. Luthiery is one thing. Simple adjustments are another.

Just some thoughts.
 
MadMinute said:
Light....
I thought that this place was here so people could learn about what they are doing with their instruments, recording hardware and software, and all that.

It seems like every time someone has a problem with a guitar, rather than giving them advice on how to fix the problem themselves, you direct them to the local shop to fix it for them.
Click to expand...

I'd have to say that Light is giving the best advice he can. While it's easy to say that a setup is an easy job, there is no substitute for experience. Just because someone can play the guitar like the devil doesn't mean they'll be able to set one up properly. Big name artists don't have pro guitar techs because they are to lazy to do things themselves. The bottom line is that it's worth the money. Sure you can try to do it yourself and, after about a month of Sundays, you may actually get it close to where a pro would get it for you in an hour or two. Time is money and I prefer to spend my time playing my guitar, not working on it. I've been playing more than 20 years and I can say with complete honesty that I couldn't do a pro quality setup to save my life. Like most stubborn fools, I tried many times and only managed to f things up worse than they already were. What's worse, if you start dinking with your truss rod and don't know what you're doing, you can do some real damage. Do yourself a favor and take it to a pro. You'll be glad you did. I recently posted a question asking for tips on local pros in my area and I took my guitar in to a shop that came reccommended by some guys on this board. I've never been happier with my guitar than I am now and it only cost me $30 (though I would gladly pay Light $75........) Plus I found out about a really cool shop that I didn't even know existed!

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this place is meant for the sharing of knowledge. However, I say again that there is no substitute for experience. Light or one of the other pros online here could lay out in great detail how they do a setup. However, you'd need to quit your job and do setups on all kinds of different models and brands of guitars for the next ten years to truly be able to do it as well yourself.
 
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My point was that the reason people come here is to learn.

Directing someone to the local shop because you own one, and think you're doing someone a favor by telling them to throw money at a simple problem is not a favor at all.

A bit of reading, and some clarification by people who know will save you from that month of Sundays, and the expense of a tech.

Touring guitarists pay those techs because they themselves don't usually have the time or energy to take care of the guitars they bring on the road. They always tour with multiple guitars. Even if they only use one or two during a set, they have more than that in guitarworld. Stringing, tuning and maintaining gigging instruments is a full time job, usually overtime in fact. Techs are also usually responsible for setting up a guitarists backline as well. And to add to all that, there are times when they do all the stringed instruments being used, and not just one guitarists. This is why players don't do it themselves on the road.

Knowledge is something that should be shared, not hoarded to keep the money flowing your way.

I am glad that light told the original poster to look at Erlwine's books. Theres alot of information in them. The techniques are simple because guitars are simple instruments. Granted, they have alot of subtleties and nuances, but mechanically, they are extremely simple.

I completely understand when somebody has a fire in an amp that it's recommended that they take it to an amp tech, but an intonation and action adjustment is nowhere near the same category. This is the kind of information every guitarist should have, especially if they gig. And the only way to get it is to ask someone who knows, and get the experience yourself by doing it. Simply referring someone to the nearest shop does nothing except give the shop business.

I think most people in here know how to change the oil in their car, even though they may pay jiffy lube from time to time to do it for them. Minor adjustments and tweaks are the same thing in my mind. Even if you don't do it all the time, at least you know how to do it when you need to.

I guess I just disagree with the philosophy of " take it to the local "pro" and have him do it because you are'nt trained and don't have the aptitude to do it yourself".

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
 
I learned to set up my own guitars from the good folks on this forum, God bless em. I buy cheap-ass pawn shop guitars that have the stirngs 2 feet off of the fret board and the intonation shot to hell. I set em up and use them for gigging. Thank you guys!!!
 
Yes, almost by definition this is a board for do-it-yourselfers. But we all run into circumstances that are beyond our capabilites. What then? Seek professional help, or continue the learning process? When something important to me is broken beyond my ability to fix it, I'm glad to seek professional help. When learning more about how to fix it (extending the list of things I can fix myself) puts the prized possession at risk, I get a pro.

I don't know about guitar geometry, but I have faith that correct intonation is the result of a lot of things being in balance, and correcting a guitar's intonation may require addressing a host of factors.

I for one appreciate Light's advice. Just like HBO on the TV, if I don't like what's there, I don't have to pay attention. (I don't understand, MadMinute, why you think money motivates Light. The time he takes to post on this board is billable time, probably, so he loses revenue when he helps us out. And he's not saying "bring it to my shop," is he?)

While I appreciate Light's cautions about when to seek help, I also appreciate the reminders others provide to look it up on frets.com and get some hands-on experience. When one of us has a problem, it's great to hear a range of recommendations. Ant this is a better forum because we hear regularly from a guy with a busy shop, and we also hear from regular players who know which end of the wrench to hold.

(BTW: glad you brought up the oil. I quit changing my own oil after I forgot to replace the drain plug, and rinsed the inside of my engine with four quarts orf new oil that poured right through the car into the waste pan. Part two of changing my own oil is that I would put it off too long.)
 
Hi guys, remember me? ;)

Just wondering if someone could take the time to hazard a guess at what might be going on with my guitar problem.

Light: I usually try to fix my own gear/equipment/washing machines because I do have A LOT of self-worth. Plus, there's no shame in being poor or shall we say, not well off enough to pay someone to solve my problems. I, too, am a professional and so understand where you are coming from but also subscribe to the notion that forums like this are for the sharing of knowledge. I don't want to become a guitar tech--I just want to play a few tunes :)

King Elvis: I buy cheap-ass pawn shop guitars that have the stirngs 2 feet off of the fret board and the intonation shot to hell. I set em up and use them for gigging.

'ZACTLY! Why? 'Cause it's fun :)

LIGHTen up guys :) LOL
 
For $20 you can get a copy of Hideo Kamimoto's "Complete Guitar Repair". It has a tremendous amount of information in it, including the Hz for each note on the fingerboard! I bought a copy 20+ years ago and I still refer to it.
 
The geometry of a guitar is not particularly complex, but it is very precise. I recommend that people go to a good repair shop because I truly believe that is the best advice I can give them. As I said earlier in this thread, if you want to PLAY your guitars, take to a good shop. If you want to learn guitar repair, then have fun learning, but do not expect you are going to be able to do the job, even a setup, as well as a good repair person. We have (right now) three people doing repair work, and between them they do about 2000 guitars a year. That is a lot of experience, and unless you are in a similar situation, you can not match it. Every one of those instruments gets a setup as a part of the repair process.

I am well familiar with the argument that a setup is simple, but it is just not true. A good setup is a balancing act between keeping the action low, having good intonation, keeping the guitar from buzzing, and maintaining the guitars dynamic range. A good setup almost always included adjusting the nut. The tools alone for this are rather expensive, but the bigger issue is that it is very easy to mess this up. When you do, you will get buzzing on the open strings, and it is a pain in the behind to fix. However, not adjusting the nut leads to high action and bad intonation in the first few positions. There is a danger of breaking a truss rod when adjusting it, though not a great one. To do intonation accurately requires a Strobe Tuner, at about $1000 for a good one (though you can probably get by these days with the Peterson Virtual Strobe for about $300). Digital tuners are simply not acceptable. The accuracy of a digital tuner is to within 2-3 cents. You can hear more accurately than that, and you intonation problems are particularly problematic when you record. Isn't this board devoted primarily to recording?

As far as the idea of a $40 setup on a Strat, I would be extremely dubious. If I were to try and offer that, I would have to pay my employees about $5 an hour. I would not trust my instrument to someone who looks at guitar repair as a cool alternative to saying, "you want fries with that."

But the real reason I think you should get a professional setup is simply this. We have customers come in all the time for a major repair, who have done their own setup work. Some of these people assume that only they can know what they want, so they can do the best job of setting up their guitars. Then we do a setup as part of the major repair. When they come to pickup their guitar, they invariably say, "It never played this well before. What did you do?"

If you like to do the repair work for its own sake, then have fun, but don't ever assume that you can do it as well as a professional. You just don't have the experience.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Generally true, however many experienced players have learned what it takes to do setup for their guitars.

It's not rocket science, and involves the items you mentioned before (nut, intonation, action, pickups, etc). The one other key item, that only the player knows, is desired playing style and feel. When a player does it, they can test as they go and find the combination that best meets their needs. A repair tech has to guess at that part.

Ed
 
For my part I think Mr Editor has the perfect situation for trying it out: the interest, and a guitar without a lot invested in it. I learned a awful lot many years ago tinkering with a cheap solidbody that got thrown into the deal when I bought my Silvertone Twin Twelve [for $40!].
 
Ed Dixon said:
A repair tech has to guess at that part.

Ed
Click to expand...


That is why I learned to do my set-ups myself. I kept getting my guitars back set up the way somebody else liked it. Personally, I think a reasonably intelligent person can learn to adjust all the things that are made to be adjustable without too much trouble, i.e. pickup height, saddles, truss rod, intonation, etc. Swapping out pickups isn't too tough either.
The time I turn to an experienced luthier is when things need to be changed that weren't made to be adjustable, i.e. fret dressing or replacing, shimming a neck, cutting a new nut, repairing a broken headstock, etc...

Well Editor, it looks like your thread has been throughouly hijacked...

Have you checked that it's not vibrations behind the nut that are causing your problems? Or some piece of loose hardware vibrating? Trem springs vibrating?

A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
I've been playing guitar for 30 years.
I own guitars that vary in value from $300 to $8K.
I don't like low action.
I compromise my intonation between the 12th and 3rd frets.
I set my nut to have minimal impact on intonation.
I have rarely been pleased with someone elses setup.
Learn to do it yourself.
 
here's an idea:

i support light's guidance to take it in for a professional setup. if there's a shop you frequent and/or you've been in town for a while, you should know someone who you'd trust with axe repairs. have him do a setup on it--but here's the catch--ask him if he'll do it after hours one evening so you can hang out and watch and maybe see if he'll explain what he's doing. explain that you want to do minor oil change service on your guitars and that you want to learn from someone who knows their shit :D (minor ego stroking's always good), and you'll be glad to bring him a 6er of his favorite beer if he'll take the 20-30 minutes after the shop closes one evening.

i also support you wanting to learn to do this for yourself--everyone should be able to do their own basic guitar maintenance. however, regardless of what we could tell you or you could read/learn from the internet, there's no substitute for personal instruction.


so yes, you spend some money on a setup. but you also get to watch and learn (and maybe help), and get set correctly on the road to doing it for yourself.


wade
 
Aaron Cheney said:
Well Editor, it looks like your thread has been throughouly hijacked...
Click to expand...

No foolin' Aaron?!? :) I'm tempted to take Frank's (Zappa) advice & just Shut Up & Play My Guitar ... but I don't have one right now ;)

Hey! Very nice licks on Blues Found Me Anyway ... extremely tasty use of echo on the guitar mix ... well done! The first tune scared me a bit (the one you won the award for)--I thought you might be Hard Core Country but it sounds like there's a lot of Allmans & Doobies in yuh too :)

Have you checked that it's not vibrations behind the nut that are causing your problems? Or some piece of loose hardware vibrating? Trem springs vibrating?

Those are possibilities...I will check everything again. I seem to recall reading about something similar to my problem (the intonation problem ... not the hijacking problem ;) in one of these forums. The overtone I hear is could almost be the sound of the string behind the fretted note.

Thanks for the suggestions Aaron :)

Oh yeah, you other guys ... know anything about flutes? Wahddabouda 1971 Farfisa organ? Gotta a set of 1963 Sears bongos that need work too. Come to think of it, my Ravi Mark III sitar could use an overhaul--can anybody recommend a good Gourd Tech?

Yuk it up people! Take time out to smell the rosewood ;)

Sincerely,

Air Guitar Chris
 
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