If you can't afford a U87 what's the next best thing???

M

Mikey77

Member
It seems that a while back many people were comparing mics like the SP-C1 to the U87 ...much to the dismay of purists or folks who actually had a U87 and disagreed with that outrageous suggestion. Obviously the U87 is a mic that is continually used as a benchmark for makers and consumers.
Anyway I came across this quote of DOT's (from a couple of years ago) on another thread and thought it should be the start of this thread. He was referring to the C1/U87 mythology/theory and suggesting the page had turned. I would think even more so by now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dot
In that price category - and doing the same sorta thing the C1 does but better and smoother - I now recommend the ADK Vienna and Hamburg.

So this thread poses the question to all those folks who have the opportunity to regularly use or who in fact own a U87 to identify to us poor homeless, shoeless slobs wandering the streets, those mics that in their opinion have come closest to emulating the qualities of the U87 for less dollars.

I would also ask the usual suspects that are going to chime in that there is "no substitute for a U87" to go and have a cup of tea and a lie down for the sake of world peace.

Which cheaper mics do you think have come closest or even bettered the U87 ???
 
Last edited:
OK so I'm not addressing the point of the thread necessarily - but I think that the mic has to suit the singer (or instrument).

I'm lucky enough to have access to C12's (aswell as U87s) - and think they sound lovely, but they're not everyone's cup of tea, and nor do they suit all types of vocal.

As for the mics giving similar sounds at lower prices - I don't know, but I watch with interest...
 
Mikey77 said:
I would also ask the usual suspects that are going to chime in that there is "no substitute for a U87" to go and have a cup of tea and a lie down for the sake of world peace.
Click to expand...


I think there is some merit to your tea idea. In fact, I have a particular flavor of tea I would highly recommend ... it's called reality check tea. It's a very bitter tasting tea at first, but after giving it some time to digest, most people actually find it to be rather brisque and satisfying.

On a more serious note ... one thing that you should know is that the majority of the cheap large diaphragm condensers on the market aim to replicate the U87, in either looks, sound or both. To make things worse, most of these mics are made in the same factories in China by a lot of the same people, so there isn't actually much difference between the various makes / models.

Even the ones that aren't quote-unquote "off the shelf" or that don't manufacture in China ... mostly use one of two standard capsules that are either made by a company called 797 or it's Shanghai counterpart. So in other words, two capsules made out of the same two factores overseas are employed in about 90% of the cheaper mics on the market.

And to make things even more interesting, they both pretty much use - you guessed it - the u87 capsule as their benchmark. Now to be fair, they don't both sound the same. One of them happens to have a more laid-back sound in the midrange while the other tends to have a more hyped high end.

So my answer to your question would be ... take your pick. It's all just a few different variations of the same basic thing. If you want my personal opinion as to what company / make / model happens to utilize these capsules better than the others ... I have a personal preference for CAD. It just think they happen to utilize the capsule in an honest way, using fast, clean electronics. But the other guys also do a more than adequate job; Studio Projects, ADK, etc. so I really don't think you can go wrong.

Now ... should you want something that has an opportunity to sound "better" than a U87, there are some less expensive mics on the market that have that capability ... if used in the right situation. And by better, I mean different. And in those instances where a u87 isn't the right fit, then something different might actually be much better. Mics that I think are outstanding for the price yet noticeably different than a u87 clone include ... Shure KSM series, Audio Technica 40 series, or for a little more money, the AKG C414 series. Most of these mics have established themselves and become studio favorites in their own right ... and one would be hard pressed to say that any would be "inferior" to something like a u87 on the lone premise that they may not have been as widely used, or that they don't carry the same price tag or name identity. However you shake it, they are all quality tools that have the capability of sounding perfect in the right situation and context.

.
 
Great post, chessrock. A few points:

1. 797 was started with the help of Neumann.

2. I believe there are about 3 or 4 major Chinese mic producers.

3. They're getting better.
 
chessrock said:
I have a personal preference for CAD. It just think they happen to utilize the capsule in an honest way, using fast, clean electronics.
Click to expand...

Any particular model?

After doing quite some reading on this subject I grabbed two M177's from Musician's Fiend recently... They dropped the price on them to almost half so I figured WTH. Haven't done any testing with them yet but there's a concert tomorrow that I am doing sound for, and also recording with my DAW, so we'll see.
 
isfahani said:
Any particular model?

After doing quite some reading on this subject I grabbed two M177's from Musician's Fiend recently... They dropped the price on them to almost half so I figured WTH. Haven't done any testing with them yet but there's a concert tomorrow that I am doing sound for, and also recording with my DAW, so we'll see.
Click to expand...

The m177 uses the same capsule as the Studio Projects C1, ADK Hamburg and a host of others. The capsule is only part of the sound, granted, but it's a very large part of it and will have the single greatest impact. From what I've noticed, CAD tends to be off the charts in terms of their measurable specs, for whatever that might be worth. Noise, frequency response, sensitivity, etc. In particular, they really tend to shine in the lower frequencies, and will generally have a flat response all the way down to like 10 hz or so.

You usually don't see the same kind of specs from the other manufacturers using the same capsules. That's not to say that specs tell the whole story, but it would at least suggest that CAD have found a unique way of employing them so as to get more out of them in certain respects. Aesthetically speaking, you have to keep in mind it is a 797 capsule, and as such it will have some of that hype in the upper frequencies, which may or may not appeal to you, given the situation.
 
Mikey77 said:
Which cheaper mics do you think have come closest or even bettered the U87 ???
Click to expand...

You get why this is kind of a hated question, right? It is like "What flavor ice cream is better to or equal to Rocky Road?" or "What car comes closest to a 2000 corvette?"

The answers are subjective, because people like (and dislike) different things about the U87.

The first 5 albums I recorded on throught the late 80's into the mid 90's used U87's heavily. All vocals, most acoustics.

I own a SP C3, and AKG414, and a Shure SM7. 3 drastically different mics. I think they are all great. If you have the money, I would suggest getting a used 414 and a SM7, if you do not, get a CAD* or an SP C3.

If you really need something that sounds like a 87, then save your money and buy one.

* I have only recorded with one CAD mic and I do not know the model... so my reference is only due to some confidence that Chessrock is not a complete idiot.
 
the cad m177/179 are amazing mics at any price, really great tools. IF you own one you really don't need to buy an adk hamburg or C1, as mentioned, unless the subtle differences in circuit design are enough to make you want that tiny bit different mic.

However if you want to save $2000 or so buy a used Neumann TLM103, sometimes it sounds so much like a U87 in cardoid that it's impossible to guess which is which. NOt always though, they do sound a speck different, but they're VERY VERY close. Remember, the capsule of the tlm103 is actually the same pretty much as half of a U87AI capsule, and is made in germany by the same company that makes the U87AI, not in china. The U87 sounds a little different from a U87AI, but again still really really close over all when in a mix. So what I'm saying here is, for $650-$700 used or for $1200 or so new you can buy a tlm103 which is, pretty much, a U87AI in cardoid mode without any level and rolloff switches. Not a copy, the real thing. The real difference between the tlm103 (and U87AI which is pretty much the same thing with multiple patterns) and the original U87 is in the circuitry, and it's the old circuit that affects the tone a bit. So unless you put in an exact circuit duplicate with identical transformer to the old U87, these mics are as close as you can get IMHO.

I own SP mics, cad mics, AT mics, Neumann mics, AKG mics, EV, Shure (condensors), Peavey (520), apex, (edit: forgot my "new" old RCA Bk5a that's being re-ribboned by peluso right now) and have used SE, ADK, telefunken, sony, so many others. For me, the closest thing to the old U87 is either a tlm103 or U87AI with a warm tube preamp. REmember, the tlm103 isn't a copy of the U87, it's intended to be a different more modern sounding mic. but it's capsule is the same design exactly (except for having to be redesigned to be single sided cardoid only) and that really does supply 92% or 93% of the sound of the mic. If you're looking for an old U87 sound though you have to use an old U87 to be "perfect". But I've imitated it to the point of being indistinguishable using just a tlm103 plus a UA solo 610 and a speck of EQ. So my recommendation is buy a used tlm103. you get WAY better build and design quality than anything chinese when you buy gefell, neumann, real akg, sennheiser, and the list goes on. There's no comparison in build quality, it's worth the extra cash alone for that IMHO.

For cheap, get a cad m179 or m177. for a little more, a used tlm103 (check craigslist, they appear every month or two in bigger cities for $600 to $700 with case and mount).

Of the cheapos, the cad's are built with the same electronic design genius as neumann's tlm series IMHO, which is to me superior to that of SP, apex, and all the others (although I think ADK is doing some nice circuit designs, so I give them their props). I'd rather have high quality transformerless circuitry (cad, neumann) rather than cheap chinese transformers (many of the competition companies).

Cheers,
Don
 
The U87AI uses the same capsule as a U67, the K67. Older U87's use a K87 capsule. Slightly different drill pattern in the backplate. The 797 capsule is a very close replication of a K67.
 
PhilGood said:
The U87AI uses the same capsule as a U67, the K67. Older U87's use a K87 capsule. Slightly different drill pattern in the backplate. The 797 capsule is a very close replication of a K67.
Click to expand...

yes, if I suggested anything different I didn't mean to. I was specifically saying that the tlm103 uses a new capsule which is really exactly half of a k67 cap wiht mods to make it unload the same on the backside without having a rear diaphram, from what I understand from the guys at neumann (in their forum).

The electronics of the u87ai are different from those of the classic u87 which is why the ai version sounds different, that's the point I was trying to get across.

Thanks for clarifying that for people, I must have sounded vague about it or something!

Cheers,
Don
 
dkelley said:
yes, if I suggested anything different I didn't mean to. I was specifically saying that the tlm103 uses a new capsule which is really exactly half of a k67 cap wiht mods to make it unload the same on the backside without having a rear diaphram, from what I understand from the guys at neumann (in their forum).

The electronics of the u87ai are different from those of the classic u87 which is why the ai version sounds different, that's the point I was trying to get across.

Thanks for clarifying that for people, I must have sounded vague about it or something!

Cheers,
Don
Click to expand...

No. I was just adding to your post.
 
Yo Mikey! First, I would disagree with the above suggestion that a TLM 103 is in any way, shape, or form, a substitute for a U87 (either old or new). I agree with Chessrock that Shure KSM44 and AKG C414 are very good mics indeed. Do they sound like a U87? Not particularly. Do they sound good? Yes.

I guess the real question is- how much is the barefoot, starving recordist expecting to spend on this U87 substitute? I happen to like B.L.U.E. Kiwi a lot. It's a $1500 mic, which is $1000 or so cheaper than a U87ai. That's a lot cheaper. Is it a cheap mic? No. Does a Studio Projects C-1 (or C-3, which is a fairer comparison, being a multipattern mic) sound like a U87? Give me a break. Does it sound as good as *any* $2500 mic? No.

There are multiple questions here. First, is there a really cheap mic (under $500, say) that is comparable to a $2500 benchmark mic? No. Get over it.
Second, is a new U87ai a good expenditure of $2500 when building a mic cabinet? In my opinion, not really, unless you are trying to impress clients with the Neumann name. If I was going to spend that kind of money on a mic, I'd be looking at Microtech Gefell, Brauner, Lawson, Soundelux, and maybe some older Neumanns. Actually, I like my Kiwi a lot, and by playing around a little bit with the 9 available polar patterns, it can be made to sound quite a bit like a U87.

Third question- are there cheap (< $500) mics that sound good, even if they don't sound like a U87? Yes. We all have our favorites. Among mine are AKG C2000B, Oktave MK319, and Shure SM7b . CAD M179 seems to play well in Peoria.

You can't buy a Dodge Viper for $5000, and you can't buy any car that is comparable for $5000. You can buy a reliable, well cared for, used Honda Civic for $5000. That's Chessrock's reality check coming right at you. You don't have to waste a lot of money on the Neumann name, but......

Really good mics cost money, and you can't get out of it.
Really good mics cost money, and you can't get out of it.
Really good mics cost money, and you can't get out of it.
Really good mics cost money, and you can't get out of it.
Really good mics cost money, and you can't get out of it.

Write this on the blackboard 500 times.-Richie
 
Here's another way to approach this problem:

Suppose an artist comes to you and he/she wants to redo some of their vocals (which were cut somewhere else using a Neumann U87). They want you to match the sound of their existing vocals, but you don't have a U87, nor is there one available for rental. You do have a lot of nearby friends who have mics in the $500 range - but, they're mostly the better Chinese models.

The challenge:

Can you get close to the existing U87 vocal sound, using one or more of these mics, and some judicious use of eq and compression?
 
or find nearby friends with better gear. :D
no joke, i've lived in my apartment for over four years and i just met and started playing in a band with a guy who lives about 50 yards away (next street over) and has two u87's, one stock, one innertube modded and has offered to let me use either anytime i want! :eek:
 
The answer: Yes. Well, probably. :D But then, I am used to the aesthetic of getting better-than-average results out of cheap-to-average priced equipment. I still dream about affording those over $500 (never mind $2000) microphones but it's a struggle to make ends meet with what I do.

chessrock said:
Aesthetically speaking, you have to keep in mind it is a 797 capsule, and as such it will have some of that hype in the upper frequencies, which may or may not appeal to you, given the situation.
Click to expand...

I am wondering what you mean by 'hype' though. I am hoping that using one of these M177's tomorrow on the vocals will give me a little less harsh of a sound than an SM87 on the Indian (Hindustani) female singer. Awesome singer but has a tone that the 87 seemed to accentuate, on the last gig I did sound for, where I was working with only what was provided. It's not nasal, not shrill... it's somewhere above 2k... :p Any ideas on how this 'capsule' hype will correspond to this?

I have been thinking about asking them to buy at least one RE20 so we have another optimal Vocal mic...
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Can you get close to the existing U87 vocal sound, using one or more of these mics, and some judicious use of eq and compression?
Click to expand...

Antares make a microphone modeler plug in. You tell it what microphone you recorded with, and then tell it what you want it to sound like. Can't remember how effective it was - as I haven't used it for a long time now.

You tell it how far from the mic you were (for proximity effect) and then how close you'd like it to sound. Dial in the cut/roll off settings for each mic and you're away.

Maybe worth trying or reading about?
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Here's another way to approach this problem:

Suppose an artist comes to you and he/she wants to redo some of their vocals (which were cut somewhere else using a Neumann U87). They want you to match the sound of their existing vocals, but you don't have a U87, nor is there one available for rental. You do have a lot of nearby friends who have mics in the $500 range - but, they're mostly the better Chinese models.

The challenge:

Can you get close to the existing U87 vocal sound, using one or more of these mics, and some judicious use of eq and compression?
Click to expand...

Yep, that's a challenge. First, I would ask if the entire vocal can be re-done, because punching in is going to get ugly. Then I would see whether a comp track could be done by cutting up the tempo map a little. For the sake of the argument, I'll grant that my B.L.U.E. Kiwi is on the fritz, because as I said, I can tweak that to sound a lot like a U87. Unfortunately, my EQ options are somewhat limited. Not really being a mixing engineer, I have more money invested in mics and pres than FX. I'd tell the guy, "I don't know how close I can get to that sound, but I'll try. You'll have to decide if it's good enough." My first choices would be B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle and Rode NTK. Neither one of them is a U87, but in their price range, they are very good mics. My general approach is to find something that sounds *good*, rather than trying to find something that sounds *similar*.-Richie
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top