if this is true...

R

rightbrainnow

New member
"Q: How is mineral wool different than fiberglass absorption material?

A: There is very little difference. Mineral wool is made from basalt rock that is melted and spun into wool. Fiberglass wool is made from silicon rock (glass) that is melted and spun into wool. The mineral wool has a higher melting point, but that has no effect on the acoustical properties. Mineral wool and fiberglass of similar densities have nearly identical acoustical properties.

Q: What's the difference between rigid fiberglass board (like Owens Corning® 703) and Sound Attenuating Fire Batts (SAFB)?

A: There are no significant differences in acoustical properties (how they absorb sound). There are two significant differences in physical/mechanical properties.

1) Density. SAFB has a density (weight) of 2.5 pounds per cubic foot, which is the most cost-effective density for absorbing sound. Higher densities absorb sound only slightly better, so they are not worth the extra cost of material in most cases. 703 is the Owens Corning rigid fiberglass board product and is commonly used for sound absorption. It has a similar density at 3.0 pounds per cubic foot, and nearly identical acoustical properties to SAFB. "


http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--A...ycXdoeTpsZGFwX3NlcnZlcjqqKRwF51vspTg/0V6vaFGT

...then why are they charging double for the 703?
 
rightbrainnow said:
"Q: How is mineral wool different than fiberglass absorption material?

A: There is very little difference. Mineral wool is made from basalt rock that is melted and spun into wool. Fiberglass wool is made from silicon rock (glass) that is melted and spun into wool. The mineral wool has a higher melting point, but that has no effect on the acoustical properties. Mineral wool and fiberglass of similar densities have nearly identical acoustical properties.

Q: What's the difference between rigid fiberglass board (like Owens Corning® 703) and Sound Attenuating Fire Batts (SAFB)?

A: There are no significant differences in acoustical properties (how they absorb sound). There are two significant differences in physical/mechanical properties.

1) Density. SAFB has a density (weight) of 2.5 pounds per cubic foot, which is the most cost-effective density for absorbing sound. Higher densities absorb sound only slightly better, so they are not worth the extra cost of material in most cases. 703 is the Owens Corning rigid fiberglass board product and is commonly used for sound absorption. It has a similar density at 3.0 pounds per cubic foot, and nearly identical acoustical properties to SAFB. "


http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--A...ycXdoeTpsZGFwX3NlcnZlcjqqKRwF51vspTg/0V6vaFGT

...then why are they charging double for the 703?
Click to expand...

A few reasons... 703 is more costly to produce, therefore costing distributors more, therefore increasing the price to consumers... Secondly, 703 is kind of the "standard" for acoustic panels. Y'know how you pay more for a well-known brand name product when it is just the same as products costing much less? Same principle. People just seem to trust 703 more. Third, 703 is generally easier to work with. There are a few more reasons, but bottom line is acoustically they both perform about the same.
 
Diffusion said:
A few reasons... 703 is more costly to produce, therefore costing distributors more, therefore increasing the price to consumers... Secondly, 703 is kind of the "standard" for acoustic panels. Y'know how you pay more for a well-known brand name product when it is just the same as products costing much less? Same principle. People just seem to trust 703 more. Third, 703 is generally easier to work with. There are a few more reasons, but bottom line is acoustically they both perform about the same.
Click to expand...

as long as they are the same acoustically...seems like a good deal to me.
 
Have you given any thought to actually building your own panels? If so, I would recommend Bonded Logic "Ultratouch". It can be kind of difficult to get a hold of, but it performs better than 703 and mineral wool, is cheaper, and it is completely human friendly. No nasty fibers, no itch, nothing to breathe in. It's made from recycled jeans. Check out this post I made a while back if you are interested:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=192127&highlight=ultratouch
 
you know what..in comparing the 703 to the other stuff...the 703 is much better...

703, plain 4" (102mm) on wall 3.0 pcf (48 kg/m3) 0.84 1.24 1.24 1.08 1.00 0.97 1.15

ats' absorbtion panel with the mineral wool- 0.22 0.26 0.28 0.68 0.65 1.10 1.21 1.11 1.08 1.07 1.15

the website is a bit misleading....appears as though the 703 is dramatically better in the low frequencies
 
rightbrainnow said:
you know what..in comparing the 703 to the other stuff...the 703 is much better...

703, plain 4" (102mm) on wall 3.0 pcf (48 kg/m3) 0.84 1.24 1.24 1.08 1.00 0.97 1.15

ats' absorbtion panel with the mineral wool- 0.22 0.26 0.28 0.68 0.65 1.10 1.21 1.11 1.08 1.07 1.15

the website is a bit misleading....appears as though the 703 is dramatically better in the low frequencies
Click to expand...

That is because the ratings above are comparing plain 703 to mineral wool with fabric over them. The fabric deflects a few low freqs... Compare the 703 panels with fabric to plain 703, you should see an overall difference in the ratings.
 
Diffusion said:
Plain 4" 703: .84 1.24 1.24 1.08 1.00 0.97 (1.15)

Plain 4" SAFB (mineral wool): 0.97 1.28 1.25 1.10 1.10 1.09 (1.20)

As far as raw material, the mineral wool is slightly better at every freq.


Check out this website. It has NRC ratings for just about every insulation on the market: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
Click to expand...

...wow...wouldnt have thought that some fabric would reduce effectiveness so much. im looking into that other stuff you suggested, i wouldnt mind building the frames at all..id rather enjoy it actually. Have you used it before?...any specs on it for how it absorbs other freqs?
 
rightbrainnow said:
...wow...wouldnt have thought that some fabric would reduce effectiveness so much. im looking into that other stuff you suggested, i wouldnt mind building the frames at all..id rather enjoy it actually. Have you used it before?...any specs on it for how it absorbs other freqs?
Click to expand...

No, I havent used it personally, but I know others who have. Bryan Pape is a well respected member on this forum who sells most kinds of mineral wool and fiberglass, and he has pretty much tried them all. He spends a large amount of time dealing with acoustics and absorbtive materials, so he knows what he is talking about. Anyway, here is what he said about Ultratouch and 703:

"Yes. I've used them both along with 4, 6, and 8lb mineral wool. Also used 3lb and 6lb bonded acoustical cotton.

It's different. To compare 5.5" cotton and 5" or 6" of 703 they would be very close. 6" of 703 is pretty tough to beat. If you're going solid, you can give up the density for the thickness. When you stack it up, you can also compress it a bit to get more density as you desire. If you take the 1.2lb UltraTouch and compress it to half it's size, you have 2.4lb, compress by 1/3 and you get about 1.8lb.

If I was going to just do 4" across a corner, I'd stick with 703 or 705. As I said, it really depends on the application.

In the higher density thinner stuff, the 703 is more cost effective. The 3lb cotton does a better job down lower by a bit. It also has zero issues with 'grazing' at shallow angles of incidence.

To throw a wrench in the works, I'm negotiating right now with the original patent holder for the cotton process for some custom products in 2lb and 3lb densities in 3 and 4" thicknesses at very attractive prices. It will be easier to cut and be available in 2'x4' pieces. Stay tuned."
Click to expand...

So basically, Ultratouch and 703 are very close as far as absorption, the only difference is that the Ultratouch is much cheaper, and you do not need to cover it with fabric, meaning there will be no deflected freqs. Simply cover your panels with chicken wire, and it will abosrb much more than if covered with fabric. Don't even try this with 703 though, you could end up with cancer. (No, seriously.) Take a look at Bryan's website, you can purchase all kinds of acoustic material there: www.sensiblesoundsolutions.com
 
Thanks for the kind words.

I do feel that I need to clarify a couple of things. A cloth covering will not reflect any low frequencies. A cloth that is too tightly woven and doesn't pass the 'blow through' test can reflect mids and highs.

I also think there was some double pasting going on when comparing the mineral wool to the fiberglass. The numbers for the mineral wool look like a set of numbers for 2" and a set of 4". Comparing 2" wool to 4" 703 will certainly make it look bad for the wool.

Realistically, apples to apples, 2.5 to 3lb mineral wool and OC703 will perform very similarly across the spectrum.

703 is more expensive. The biggest reason people use it is because:

1. Mineral wool is messier to work with
2. Mineral wool can crumble if handled too much
3. Mineral wool doesn't cut as cleanly (if you're not using full pcs and have to cut it)
4. 703 is stiffer - this isn't a big deal when it's in a frame or when you're using 4", but with 2", the mineral wool will barely stand up on it's own (but then again, neither will the 3lb acoustical cotton - but it performs better)

Bottom line is there are tradeoffs. If you want something easy to cut, fairly rigid, and will take some handling, stick with 703.

If you have to watch the budget, are using full pieces, or are going to frame and do once and leave it alone, mineral wool may be a better choice.

Bryan
 
I don't mean to sidetrack the thread and I suppose my question is asked and answered elsewhere, BUT..

Does 703 come in both 4x8 and 2x4 ? It'd be no problem to cut, but 2x4 is a nice panel size for me and yet i'd like a 4 x 8 for my ceiling.

Sorry and thanks :)
 
Well two reasons:

1. I HOPE that by living in Chicago I will be able to find a place to buy direct from - pick it up.

2. I'd like a solid piece for my ceiling free of seam beneath the fabric covering.
I'm not sure if once covered a seam could be seen (I guess it'd depend), but that was my reasoning.

-Thanks-
 
rightbrainnow said:
...then why are they charging double for the 703?
Click to expand...

OK - Let's look at this realistially for a moment - all of the uses for these acoustically within rooms have nothing to do with why the products were manufactured.

The uses we have for them acoustically are great for our needs- but not the use the manufacturer envisioned for them - nor does this use constitute the majority of sales for these products.

For example - although rock wool is excellent for firesafing - rigid fiberglass products have no value in that regards.

By the same token - I would never want rock wool installed for the purpose of lining duct - whereas ridig fiberglass is an excellent product for that purpose.

The absorption coefficiencies were not examinined so you could build your studio - but rather for consideration in conjunction with a variety of construction projects for use in mechanical systems and wall assemblies..........

These are 2 very different products from the point of view of the construction industry.

Sincerely,

Rod Gervais
 
Bill,

Yes. You can get 703 in 2x4, 4x8 and even 4x10 I believe. If you can get it locally, might be good for you. Just don't expect a price break for buying big pieces and cutting yourself. Very few places give anything other than the price per square foot no matter the size.

Rod nailed it on the cost/usage issues. Mineral wool is less expensive because it's primary ingredients are left over waste material from other processes in ore production. It's basically made from the leftover slag. Fiberglass has to be made chemically.

Also, to retain the rigidity and lack of as much shedding, the fiberglass requires more bonding agent - again more cost.

Bryan
 
We are indeed peanuts in the insulation market. Many times the places you buy it don't even realize that people us it in studios.

Bill,

Here's where you can get some good stuff around Chicago:

Roxul AFB Insulation, Acoustic/Sound Caulk and Neoprene
A&I Supply
160 N. Eisenhower Lane
Lombard, IL 60148
630-629-3009

Owens Corning Insulation (OC703)
SPI Chicago
1420 West Thorndale
Itasca, Illinois 60143
630-773-1200
630-773-9244 FAX

Dietrich RC-Deluxe and Sound Caulk (you may have to special order the RCDeluxe)
Gypsum Supply Co.
724 Parkwood Ave.
Romeoville, IL 60446
(815) 293-3225
 
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