I think I'm getting better at this...how's this mix?

Dave,

Love the song, the arrangement is cool. I do hear the pumping and the high end break up during the cymbal crashes. I wonder, does your two bus compressor have a side chain filter for the low end. If not, the low end triggers the compressor more than you'd like, and compresses everything in the mix when you don't want it to. That can give you the pumping that we're all hearing. I'd love to hear this without the stereo buss compressor and the vocal exciter, just to see what the overall mix sounds like. I also thought I heard a Rhodes, but it's barely audible. Don't know how it would sound if you turned that up a couple dB, but could be worth a try.

GZ
 
Hey Brad, thanks for checking it out. I think you are onto something regarding the Rhodes keys. That right side Rhodes part is definitely syncopated differently than the guitar on the left. So...maybe that is part of what's causing the pumping sound. I think that's going to be the first thing I try with new mixes...maybe place it differently, or just come up with a different part...heck, maybe take it out altogether. I love that part, but if it's not serving the song/mix, it's gotta go! Great ears on that, dude!

Mel, thanks for the listen and the comments! I am actually working with Jan Ohlhorst (aka karumba) to have all of my tunes mastered in preparation for an album, so I probably won't be going back to re-address the stereo bus compression settings, but I know that it's in good hands with Jan :) I think you're suggestion to side-chain the input is a great one though. Good ears on the Rhodes - as per Brad's astute observation above, I think that might actually be related to the pumping, so I'll have to play around with it.

You guys rock!!!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave,

I've heard Karumba's stuff, and he does a nice job, but I hope you're aware that compression is something that can't be undone no matter how good the M.E. is. Once you send an over compressed pumping mix to him, there is not much he'll be able to do to fix it.

GZ
 
Hey Mel, yes definitely! I am sending Jan stems with no stereo processing at all, so no compression there :)

Best,

Dave
 
Two things.

a) yes, it's compressed--but it still sounds great. In fact, it sounds commercially viable (as opposed to most of the crap we/I record).

b) you're sending uncompressed stems to the ME--so it doesn't even matter.

So congrats. Killer tune. I'll buy the CD.
 
Thanks, Greg.

BigRed360 - thanks for the listen and the comments - two very good points :)

Here's the mix with no compression on the stereo output, and the exciter removed from the lead vocal track. This is what I'm sending to Jan in stem format.

View attachment Last Straw Dry.mp3

Thanks, everyone, for the input and suggestions.

Still Learning,

Dave
 
Good to hear something of yours again. Overall, it sounds really good. excellent performance all around and a nice arrnagement.

The only things that stood out to me were your lead vocal track having almost a little sizzling quality to it bordering on harshness, but not that bad.

I also thought the cymbals, particularly the HHs, sounded kind of odd. The decay seemed unnatural and in general they sounded like they had gone through some kind of unkind file conversion.

Keep in mind I am holding you to a very high standard and am admittedly trying to find anything at all I can to try to help, so it is a bit of a reach on my part.

Well done!
 
The basic mix sounds great Dave,

It should be stellar after its been mastered.

I'm still learning too, so I'll offer this:
I'm reading Bob Katz Mastering audio, he says a mix thats a touch dull sounds better after Mastering than a mix sent that is hot/biting, so I've been alot more careful to not " Do the Mastering Engineers job" during the mix.

The results have proven correct.

Just a thought. :)

Good luck with it.
 
dewhitt said:
Here's the mix with no compression on the stereo output.
Click to expand...


Dude, I could be wrong, but it sounds like there are problems here.

Where does this hit on your meters, cos it really sounds like the mix is really shitting itself on some of the heavy downbeats.

Anyone else hearing this?
 
Steenamaroo said:
Dude, I could be wrong, but it sounds like there are problems here.

Where does this hit on your meters, cos it really sounds like the mix is really shitting itself on some of the heavy downbeats.

Anyone else hearing this?
Click to expand...

There's still some problems with the overheads that you can especially hear on the crash. It sounds like the release time is too short and the compressor is clamping down hard on the crashes, then releasing before the cymbal wash is completed and the volume spikes again. It's especially noticeable on the crashes from about 1:29 on. Dave, is that what's causing the odd sounding crashes? Could also be a phase issue if you have a separate crash mic, getting phasey with the overheads. Don't know for sure what I'm hearing, but I think you should address it before mastering. Also think this is a bit too loud to send for mastering. Karumba is going to need some headroom to work with.

GZ
 
Thanks again, guys....I very much appreciate the feedback and suggestions!

PDP, I think I need to check out that book you are reading. One thing I will say about that though is that Jan is pretty darn awesome to work with...he's been patient and very forgiving with my bumbling attempts at getting him workable mixes. It's been a very collaborative process, and Jan always lets me know if he needs something re-recorded, mixed differently, etc. Anyone looking for an ME, look no further :)

That said, I have some real limitations in my current writing/recording process, that Jan and I have been dealing with. Here is my current workflow and the issue:

  • I write the song
  • I record the song, track by track, and use software drums to complete the "demo"
  • My friend comes over and records the real drum tracks over the existing recording
  • I time-correct the drum tracks with Logic's flex time feature
  • The result is better timed drums, but there are always issues on the overhead tracks from the flex time process

So, I'm pretty sure what you are all hearing with the cymbals and hats is a result of the time correction...often Logic will put flex time markers in places that distort the audio wave...so the cymbal crashes or hats get unnaturally shortened or lengthened, or whatever. Also, Logic will often flex correct slightly different between the left and right overhead tracks...awesome :facepalm: I do go through after the basic flex time process, and tediously move stuff around, delete unnecessary markers, and generally try to clean up the mess, but the end result is definitely not natural. However, as I mentioned before to Greg, I think the tradeoff is one that I have to make. The average listener is not going to zero in on high hat and cymbal artifacts, but they will ABSOLUTELY notice any timing issues. To really correct this issue, I need to change the way I record. I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I know now that as soon as this album is done, that's going to be my focus. Step one = rehearse properly with the drummer so that we can record it right, and not have to "fix" anything. (In his defense, he's a great drummer and musician, but what I've been asking him to do is very difficult.)

Anyway, that's probably more information than you guys care to know, but with all the helpful and thoughtful responses, I felt like I should explain.

Very Best,

Dave
 
No offense, but your songs aren't difficult to drum. You shouldn't have to be going through all that bullshit to get tight drum tracks. Maybe find a better drummer, or record the drums first. Give him a scratch track to play along to, and then record all your keeper stuff on top of the real drums. It's way, way easier to fit a bass and guitars to existing drums than it is to fit drums into existing other stuff.
 
Yeah, I used the Cubase time warp once and it made such strange results (sound wise) I scrapped ever using it again. Not sure if a good Drum quantize program is that bad, but the more natural the better.
 
dewhitt said:
Here's the mix with no compression on the stereo output, and the exciter removed from the lead vocal track. This is what I'm sending to Jan in stem format.

View attachment 68080
Click to expand...

yes. this *is* your best mix up to now! it sounds nice. i can't believe your mixing skills increased that much within that short time.
good work! *thumbs up*
 
Greg_L said:
No offense, but your songs aren't difficult to drum. You shouldn't have to be going through all that bullshit to get tight drum tracks. Maybe find a better drummer, or record the drums first. Give him a scratch track to play along to, and then record all your keeper stuff on top of the real drums. It's way, way easier to fit a bass and guitars to existing drums than it is to fit drums into existing other stuff.
Click to expand...

1000% agree. That's what I should have been doing all along, and that's going to be my plan for moving forward. I guess I won't know for sure how much of the issue is purely performance related until I give him the benefit of trying to record the drums the way you described.

Best,

Dave
 
dewhitt said:
Thanks again, guys....I very much appreciate the feedback and suggestions!

PDP, I think I need to check out that book you are reading. One thing I will say about that though is that Jan is pretty darn awesome to work with...he's been patient and very forgiving with my bumbling attempts at getting him workable mixes. It's been a very collaborative process, and Jan always lets me know if he needs something re-recorded, mixed differently, etc. Anyone looking for an ME, look no further :)

That said, I have some real limitations in my current writing/recording process, that Jan and I have been dealing with. Here is my current workflow and the issue:

  • I write the song
  • I record the song, track by track, and use software drums to complete the "demo"
  • My friend comes over and records the real drum tracks over the existing recording
  • I time-correct the drum tracks with Logic's flex time feature
  • The result is better timed drums, but there are always issues on the overhead tracks from the flex time process

So, I'm pretty sure what you are all hearing with the cymbals and hats is a result of the time correction...often Logic will put flex time markers in places that distort the audio wave...so the cymbal crashes or hats get unnaturally shortened or lengthened, or whatever. Also, Logic will often flex correct slightly different between the left and right overhead tracks...awesome :facepalm: I do go through after the basic flex time process, and tediously move stuff around, delete unnecessary markers, and generally try to clean up the mess, but the end result is definitely not natural. However, as I mentioned before to Greg, I think the tradeoff is one that I have to make. The average listener is not going to zero in on high hat and cymbal artifacts, but they will ABSOLUTELY notice any timing issues. To really correct this issue, I need to change the way I record. I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I know now that as soon as this album is done, that's going to be my focus. Step one = rehearse properly with the drummer so that we can record it right, and not have to "fix" anything. (In his defense, he's a great drummer and musician, but what I've been asking him to do is very difficult.)

Anyway, that's probably more information than you guys care to know, but with all the helpful and thoughtful responses, I felt like I should explain.

Very Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
Dave, That all makes sense. Greg's approach certainly has merit.

Side note regarding flex time. Before turning it on, if you group the R and L overhead tracks(or guitar tracks, or whatever), and check the right boxes for the group, making any change in the R overhead track will automatically make the exact same change in the L overhead track. You can also remove unwanted flex markers by simply double clicking on them. Also, I don't know if you've noticed but the more compressed or stretched a segment gets, the darker orange or green it gets. The most natural sounding flex time changes are achieved by getting the color of adjacent segments as light as possible. If you have a really dark segment next to a really light one, it's likely not going to sound very natural. Maybe you already knew this, but just thought I'd throw it in in case you didn't.

GZ
 
dewhitt said:
Thanks, Greg.

BigRed360 - thanks for the listen and the comments - two very good points :)

Here's the mix with no compression on the stereo output, and the exciter removed from the lead vocal track. This is what I'm sending to Jan in stem format.

View attachment 68080

Thanks, everyone, for the input and suggestions.

Still Learning,

Dave
Click to expand...

The "kick"? at the beginning seems too loud but settles in nicely after the music gets louder. You have a wonderful voice and the writing on this is super and catchy! The reverb is so full - love it! Do we get hear what Jan does with this as a comparison? :D
 
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