i finally inherited my brothers old desk and spent a few hours today moving all my junk around and setting up a relatively organized 4-track studio... i could really use a patchbay to keep all the cables organized now, but i need to know whether i should go balanced or unbalanced... i have a tascam 424mk3, a rnc (compressor), and am probably getting some kind of multi-effects processor.. also if anyone has the way they interfaced a patchbay with their taz424 or similar recorder online that'd be cool to look at too...
I organized my studio.. now i need a patchbay
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KingNothing
New member
This may sound real stupid, but can someone explain the difference between unbalanced and balanced patch bays?
sonusman
Banned
Balanced/Unbalanced signal lines.
Unbalanced has a Hot (+) wire, and a Ground wire. This is like a guitar cable.
Balanced has a Hot (+), Cold (-), and Ground wire. This is like a microphone cable.
On a balanced line, the + and - wire are 180 degrees out of phase. There is a transformer, or Electronic circuit that deals with the two signals that are out of phase to make it a signal that is useful to the input devise.
Balanced line enjoy the lack of RFI and AFI interference because the interference hits both the + and - wire in phase, so when the transformer, or electronic balanced circuit recieves it, it will be interpreted out of phase by 180 degrees, thus, will be cancelled out at the input device.
On a Unbalanced line, RFI and AFI interference will produce some nasty sounds because the audio signal is actually only carried by the Hot (+) lead, thus, no circuit to cancel the interference out.
If you don't know what RFI and AFI is, start reading up on it.
Ed
[This message has been edited by sonusman (edited 05-26-2000).]
Unbalanced has a Hot (+) wire, and a Ground wire. This is like a guitar cable.
Balanced has a Hot (+), Cold (-), and Ground wire. This is like a microphone cable.
On a balanced line, the + and - wire are 180 degrees out of phase. There is a transformer, or Electronic circuit that deals with the two signals that are out of phase to make it a signal that is useful to the input devise.
Balanced line enjoy the lack of RFI and AFI interference because the interference hits both the + and - wire in phase, so when the transformer, or electronic balanced circuit recieves it, it will be interpreted out of phase by 180 degrees, thus, will be cancelled out at the input device.
On a Unbalanced line, RFI and AFI interference will produce some nasty sounds because the audio signal is actually only carried by the Hot (+) lead, thus, no circuit to cancel the interference out.
If you don't know what RFI and AFI is, start reading up on it.
Ed
[This message has been edited by sonusman (edited 05-26-2000).]
KingNothing
New member
Thanks. It all makes some sense now.
Ok, you knew some smartass was going to have to come along and say it, so I guess it might as well be me. Technically, the signal on the + and - wires are not 180 out of phase. Rather, they are opposite polarity. An input that expects to receive a balanced signal will use the difference between the + and - to interpret the signal. If any outside noise were to interfere with these signals as they go over these wires, it would interfere by adding or subtracting voltage to both signals equally. Therefore the voltage difference between the wires would be the same and the noise would not be seen.
Pardon the nitpicking.
Pardon the nitpicking.
Treeline
New member
Balanced quarter inch cables have three conductors; they are stereo cables, but used for one and not two signals. One conductor carries a mono signal. The other conductor carries the identical signal, but completely out of phase with the first. The cable itself should be familiar, with a tip, a ring, and a sleeve conductor. The sleeve is the ground.
Both conductors pick up line noise, static, radio frequency interference, miscellaneous sonic garbage, because a wire is an antenna.
This interference is identical in each conductor; it has not been toyed with, as the signals themselves were. Upon reaching their destination, one of these two "versions" of the signal, together with all the noise it has picked up, is again phase reversed, so now the signals are exactly in phase with each other. They are then joined. However, the junk on each conductor is now exactly OUT of phase. That part of the signal is also joined in the final mono signal.
Well, so what, you say. Here comes the neat part: A sound has a certain frequency "fingerprint", so to speak. Each is unique. You hear it as the consequence of a change in pressure in your ear created by an energy disturbance having the characteristics represented by that "fingerprint." Noise.
Pair that noise with its phase reversed sibling, and an additive process takes place akin to what we learned in the fourth grade with "positive" and "negative" mathematical values. So, (+)3 added to (-)3, for instance, yields zero. Think of the negative value as analogous to the "phase reversal" of the positive, and you can predict what will happen when you mix the two noises - a zero sound. Silence.
So the only thing attached to the signal that ultimately remains phase reversed is the noise. It's there, all right, but you cannot hear it.
Using mono cables in stereo jacks, or in balanced jacks, can cause anxiety because the unbalanced cable will short two conductors in the balanced jack. May not matter a whit. But there are times when it can, such as when using headphone jacks. God, I'm wordy.
Sometimes you can use an unbalanced ("mono" or two conductor) cable in a balanced jack without fear of "doing something" to the circuitry by inserting the unbalanced cable only until it clicks *once*. You make contact with the ring and sleeve conductors, with your mono tip and sleeve. (Ahem, well, pardon me.) Anyway, this way you pick up 1/2 the balanced signal - which is mono.
[This message has been edited by Treeline (edited 05-26-2000).]
Both conductors pick up line noise, static, radio frequency interference, miscellaneous sonic garbage, because a wire is an antenna.
This interference is identical in each conductor; it has not been toyed with, as the signals themselves were. Upon reaching their destination, one of these two "versions" of the signal, together with all the noise it has picked up, is again phase reversed, so now the signals are exactly in phase with each other. They are then joined. However, the junk on each conductor is now exactly OUT of phase. That part of the signal is also joined in the final mono signal.
Well, so what, you say. Here comes the neat part: A sound has a certain frequency "fingerprint", so to speak. Each is unique. You hear it as the consequence of a change in pressure in your ear created by an energy disturbance having the characteristics represented by that "fingerprint." Noise.
Pair that noise with its phase reversed sibling, and an additive process takes place akin to what we learned in the fourth grade with "positive" and "negative" mathematical values. So, (+)3 added to (-)3, for instance, yields zero. Think of the negative value as analogous to the "phase reversal" of the positive, and you can predict what will happen when you mix the two noises - a zero sound. Silence.
So the only thing attached to the signal that ultimately remains phase reversed is the noise. It's there, all right, but you cannot hear it.
Using mono cables in stereo jacks, or in balanced jacks, can cause anxiety because the unbalanced cable will short two conductors in the balanced jack. May not matter a whit. But there are times when it can, such as when using headphone jacks. God, I'm wordy.
Sometimes you can use an unbalanced ("mono" or two conductor) cable in a balanced jack without fear of "doing something" to the circuitry by inserting the unbalanced cable only until it clicks *once*. You make contact with the ring and sleeve conductors, with your mono tip and sleeve. (Ahem, well, pardon me.) Anyway, this way you pick up 1/2 the balanced signal - which is mono.
[This message has been edited by Treeline (edited 05-26-2000).]
Nope, you're not wrong. Sounds like we're talking about the same thing. It's just the meaning of the word "phase" that needs to be clear. You (and sonusman) are saying "180 out of phase" when I think you mean to say "opposite polarity".
When a signal is 180 degrees out of phase, it means that it is delayed (or perhaps advanced) by a half a cycle. Of course, a full cycle of a wave is 360 degrees. If we were talking about a sine wave at a specific frequency, then 180 out of phase would effectively be the same as opposite polarity.
Hope this doesn't confuse anyone more.
[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 05-26-2000).]
When a signal is 180 degrees out of phase, it means that it is delayed (or perhaps advanced) by a half a cycle. Of course, a full cycle of a wave is 360 degrees. If we were talking about a sine wave at a specific frequency, then 180 out of phase would effectively be the same as opposite polarity.
Hope this doesn't confuse anyone more.
[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 05-26-2000).]
KingNothing
New member
Ya ya. Me. Kinda. I dunno. Monetarily challenged at the moment.
