How to record drums on a budget?

[cian]

Hi all,

I need just a little help here. I have a friend who plays drums and we want to record some songs. It's just a hobby, nothing too serious. I'm planning on buying a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 soon to use for recording all instruments (guitar, vocals, drums etc). We expect to record drums by themselves and overdub them after.

I was looking at some basic mic packages like this Apex DP-3 one or this CAD Stage 7. We could even go cheaper and use a 4 mic setup like the Samson 5Kit set. It's a 5 piece kit btw with a crash, a ride and a hi-hat.

The only problem I have is that I'm not sure it will work. The Focusrite interface only has 2 XLR inputs so I'm not sure if there's some way to record all 7 drum mics. They don't all have to be separate tracks, even if we could just get kick drum on one track and everything else on another it would be great. Is there any fairly cheap way to link all the cables into one?


Failing this, what are our options? Can we use a single overhead condenser and a dynamic on the bass drum? Any recommendations greatly appreciated.

By the way, I'd like to stick to the website linked (Proaudiostar) if possible, just because I'm getting a good deal on some other stuff there.

 

[guitarplayr82]

A way to get the kick mic on one channel and the other mics on the other channel is to buy a small mixer and plug the kick mic straight into the interface and plug all the other mics into the mixer and then plug the mixer into the other input on the interface. I strongly discourage this, though. You will have no stereo image and you won't have individual control over each mic. The tighness of the drums you hear in professional recordings is mostly due to the compression and processing done to the individual tracks. You will have no way to process each individual track if you record all the mics (except the kick) onto a single track (unless you buy outboard gear, which costs a lot of money).

I advise you to check out the Tascam US-1800/US-1641. (The 1800 and 1641 are basically the same interface, but the 1800 is a newer model.) These interfaces are cheap (around $300 new) and still deliver pretty good quality. I also advise you to look at some demo videos for the drum mic pack you plan to buy on YouTube so you can make sure you are buying a sound you like.

 

[cian]

A way to get the kick mic on one channel and the other mics on the other channel is to buy a small mixer and plug the kick mic straight into the interface and plug all the other mics into the mixer and then plug the mixer into the other input on the interface. I strongly discourage this, though. You will have no stereo image and you won't have individual control over each mic. The tighness of the drums you hear in professional recordings is mostly due to the compression and processing done to the individual tracks. You will have no way to process each individual track if you record all the mics (except the kick) onto a single track (unless you buy outboard gear, which costs a lot of money).

I advise you to check out the Tascam US-1800/US-1641. (The 1800 and 1641 are basically the same interface, but the 1800 is a newer model.) These interfaces are cheap (around $300 new) and still deliver pretty good quality. I also advise you to look at some demo videos for the drum mic pack you plan to buy on YouTube so you can make sure you are buying a sound you like.

That Tascam looks pretty good, I'm assuming that 4 tracks for drums is significantly better than 2? At least it would allow me to plug in all the mics anyway. Do you know if the line-ins on that interface are pre-amped?

 

[saads]

The Focusrite interface has 4 inputs, theres 2 line inputs in the back, so you can do 2 overheads, and a spot mic on the kick and snare. You'll probably need a dual pre amp though, for the dynamic snare and kick mics. Rather than go for a drum kit mics bundle, I'd get a cheap pair of SDC as overheads ( Behringer C2s, CAD CMs, etc. ) and an SM57 for snare, and trigger the kick till I can get a nice kick mic. But that's just me, a lot of people get their kicks sounding nice with cheap mics too.
guitarplayer is right, you might want to look into other interfaces also. The US1641 will you way more options.

 

[saads]

That Tascam looks pretty good, I'm assuming that 4 tracks for drums is significantly better than 2? At least it would allow me to plug in all the mics anyway. Do you know if the line-ins on that interface are pre-amped?

The Tascam has 8 XLR inputs, not 4. No, the line ins are not pre amped, you'll need an external pre amp if you plan on using a mic with it.

 

[cian]

The Focusrite interface has 4 inputs, theres 2 line inputs in the back, so you can do 2 overheads, and a spot mic on the kick and snare. You'll probably need a dual pre amp though, for the dynamic snare and kick mics. Rather than go for a drum kit mics bundle, I'd get a cheap pair of SDC as overheads ( Behringer C2s, CAD CMs, etc. ) and an SM57 for snare, and trigger the kick till I can get a nice kick mic. But that's just me, a lot of people get their kicks sounding nice with cheap mics too.
guitarplayer is right, you might want to look into other interfaces also. The US1641 will you way more options.

That's an interesting idea. So you're saying just using 4 mics could still sound okay?

So the setup would be:

1)Behringer C2s (pair), held over the kit on stands. I guess that these will pretty much record the entire kit but will be the only tracks with toms and cymbals?

2)Shure SM57 pointed at the snare

3) I don't really know how to trigger a bass drum. Where can you buy the trigger and how much do they cost? Alternatively, could I simply use another dynamic mic? I was planning on getting a Shure SM58 for vocals anyway and I know it's far from ideal, but could it work here? It would be handy and it could save some money.

I think I would still go with the Tascam interace though, preamps seem fairly expensive and it's a bit messier too for someone inexperienced like myself.

The Tascam has 8 XLR inputs, not 4. No, the line ins are not pre amped, you'll need an external pre amp if you plan on using a mic with it.

What I meant was that it has 4 out. Doesn't that mean that only 4 separate tracks will be recorded on the DAW?

And for the line ins I meant for plugging a guitar/bass into it. I have an amp with a line out so I think that should function as a basic preamp, right?

 

[saads]

That's an interesting idea. So you're saying just using 4 mics could still sound okay?

Yeah, the key word there is could. Depending on what kind of sound you're after and how you go about recording.

I don't really know how to trigger a bass drum. Where can you buy the trigger and how much do they cost?

You can buy triggers, look up ddrum triggers. But I recommend using any old cheapo mic, sticking it in the kick, and using software to trigger it. You can try the drumagog demo, or that Jonas Trigger plug in in Reaper. I said this before and I'll say it again, getting a decent kick sound from a cheap mic is entirely possible, but if you're a little lazy and want fast results, triggering isn't a bad idea.

I think I would still go with the Tascam though, preamps seem fairly expensive and it's a bit messier too.

Tascam is better for you because it has more inputs. As far as pre amps go, I have a feeling the Focusrite pre amps are better.

What I meant was that it has 4 out. Doesn't that mean that only 4 separate tracks will be recorded on the DAW?

No. The tracks go to your PC via the USB cable, not those outs. Those are separate. You can record at least 8 tracks simultaneously with the Tascam (if your PC can handle it)

And for the line ins I meant for plugging a guitar/bass into it. I have an amp with a line out so I think that should function as a basic preamp, right?

Yeah you're fine then, if you're using an amp.

 

[cian]

Yeah, the key word there is could. Depending on what kind of sound you're after and how you go about recording.



You can buy triggers, look up ddrum triggers. But I recommend using any old cheapo mic, sticking it in the kick, and using software to trigger it. You can try the drumagog demo, or that Jonas Trigger plug in in Reaper. I said this before and I'll say it again, getting a decent kick sound from a cheap mic is entirely possible, but if you're a little lazy and want fast results, triggering isn't a bad idea.



Tascam is better for you because it has more inputs. As far as pre amps go, I have a feeling the Focusrite pre amps are better.



No. The tracks go to your PC via the USB cable, not those outs. Those are separate. You can record at least 8 tracks simultaneously with the Tascam (if your PC can handle it)



Yeah you're fine then, if you're using an amp.

Okay, I think I'm gonna get the Behringers and SM57 with the Tascam. I think the Behringers come with a stereo bar to hang both of them on. Should I just attach that to a mic stand and hang it over the drums?

 

[saads]

I think the Behringers come with a stereo bar to hang both of them on. Should I just attach that to a mic stand and hang it over the drums?

Yeah they do, and you could definitely do that. You'll record using the X Y method, you won't be able to do the Glyn Johns or Recorderman though.

 

[jimmys69]

That Tascam looks pretty good, I'm assuming that 4 tracks for drums is significantly better than 2? At least it would allow me to plug in all the mics anyway. Do you know if the line-ins on that interface are pre-amped?

Just to make it clearer for you, The 1800 has 10 total preamps. 8 with XLR inputs and two 1/4" selectable guitar/line in. So you could use the latter with XLR to 1/4" adapters and run 10 mics at once. There are four more analog line in's that you can use outboard preamps or a mixer to get them running. Just using outputs of a mixer panned L/R, sent to channels 11/12 of the Tascam, will get you a total of 12 mic inputs. All sent to individual tracks in your DAW.

 

[cian]

Yeah they do, and you could definitely do that. You'll record using the X Y method, you won't be able to do the Glyn Johns or Recorderman though.

Well we can stick with the XY method for now and if we want then we can always just get another stand to try out the Glyn Johns or Recorderman method

Just to make it clearer for you, The 1800 has 10 total preamps. 8 with XLR inputs and two 1/4" selectable guitar/line in. So you could use the latter with XLR to 1/4" adapters and run 10 mics at once. There are four more analog line in's that you can use outboard preamps or a mixer to get them running. Just using outputs of a mixer panned L/R, sent to channels 11/12 of the Tascam, will get you a total of 12 mic inputs. All sent to individual tracks in your DAW.

That's definitely good news. I thought I would need to use my guitar amp to record bass but if two of the 1/4" are preamped then that's great! Not to mention the obvious possibility of being able to upgrade all the way up to a 12 mic setup at some stage. Thanks for the info

I will hopefully order this stuff off Amazon this weekend and we can start recording soon after.

 

[jimmys69]

Well, you could upgrade to a 16 mic setup actually. That was just a simple way to get to 12 with cheap stuff. Look on Craigslist or similar for an ART Dual MP for $50 or so, and have 14. You would need a preamp with digital SPDIF outputs to get to 16 mic inputs. Keep in mind that you cannot go any further with the 1800 after this. Tho, I have not found the need as of yet.

Yes there is better quality interfaces with better AD conversion and preamps. For the price, you can't get more decent inputs for starting out than the 1800.

 

[jimmys69]

I will suggest an option with your limited budget to start, that you use one of the cheap mic packages and purchase SS Trigger EX along with the Tascam. The reason I say this is that you can use Trigger ($139+$25 ILOK) to replace or enhance the sounds from mic'd drums in a poor sounding room with cheap microphones. Some might consider it lazy, but man you can get some professional sounding drums without the expense as long as you have decent quality tracks to trigger from. I have an example I will upload to dropbox that was recorded by some friends at their rehearsal space with one of those $300 Audix drum mic kits. The kick drum was hideous, but good enough to trigger Trigger. The snare wasn't bad but needed help. I used SS Trigger to 'fix' these issues. Let me get the link up and I'll post back.........

 

[jimmys69]

Here it is. I do not myself rely upon replacement always, but you can get a whole lot more from your recordings by enhancing with triggered drums when room treatment, good mics, and quality gear are not affordable. Just my $.02. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[hollowmanpl]

Hmmm
Behringer BCA2000 (don't remember...) + ADA8000 gives you 10 mic inputs.
Or I recommend Maudio Profire 2626, Presonus Firestudio etc with 8 inputs...

Mics...
If you're recording guitar with SM57, you can use it with snare.
Samson 5kit pack is cheap and really cool.
Behringer C2 are the best low-budget mics for OH's on the planet for me

 

[cian]

I will suggest an option with your limited budget to start, that you use one of the cheap mic packages and purchase SS Trigger EX along with the Tascam. The reason I say this is that you can use Trigger ($139+$25 ILOK) to replace or enhance the sounds from mic'd drums in a poor sounding room with cheap microphones. Some might consider it lazy, but man you can get some professional sounding drums without the expense as long as you have decent quality tracks to trigger from. I have an example I will upload to dropbox that was recorded by some friends at their rehearsal space with one of those $300 Audix drum mic kits. The kick drum was hideous, but good enough to trigger Trigger. The snare wasn't bad but needed help. I used SS Trigger to 'fix' these issues. Let me get the link up and I'll post back.........

I don't fully understand how Trigger works. Can you tell me if this is right:

1) Record drums (say 7 tracks, one per drum/cymbal/etc)

2) Open up the recorded tracks in Trigger

3) Enhance original drum tracks by replacing the recorded sounds with digital ones

Is that how it works?

I take it that it's necessary to have a full set of mics rather than the 4 mic setup? And is the software easy to use?

Here it is. I do not myself rely upon replacement always, but you can get a whole lot more from your recordings by enhancing with triggered drums when room treatment, good mics, and quality gear are not affordable. Just my $.02. Take it for what it's worth.

I have to admit that that does sound very good. You don't happen to have an un-enhanced version so I can compare do you?

 

[jimmys69]

I typically duplicate a channel, say kick drum. Insert Trigger on the duplicate channel and select an appropriate sample. Mix the mic'd track with the sample. Repeat for snare, toms. You could use it only for the kick or snare or whatever. In the case here, the Kick was completely replaced.

You really don't want to hear that. lol. It sounds horrible. I can post it later today if you really want to hear it.

Don't forget, the sounds in trigger are not fake. They are recorded drum samples. They are digitally triggered but played by a human.

 

[cian]

Hmmm
Behringer BCA2000 (don't remember...) + ADA8000 gives you 10 mic inputs.
Or I recommend Maudio Profire 2626, Presonus Firestudio etc with 8 inputs...

Mics...
If you're recording guitar with SM57, you can use it with snare.
Samson 5kit pack is cheap and really cool.
Behringer C2 are the best low-budget mics for OH's on the planet for me

Hadn't thought about Samson pack for a while. Only thing is that I couldn't afford it and the SM57. I might stick with the 4 mic set up and I can upgrade if I need to in the future.

I typically duplicate a channel, say kick drum. Insert Trigger on the duplicate channel and select an appropriate sample. Mix the mic'd track with the sample. Repeat for snare, toms. You could use it only for the kick or snare or whatever. In the case here, the Kick was completely replaced.

You really don't want to hear that. lol. It sounds horrible. I can post it later today if you really want to hear it.

Don't forget, the sounds in trigger are not fake. They are recorded drum samples. They are digitally triggered but played by a human.

So you're saying to put an actual trigger (like this one for example) on the kick drum, which sends a signal to the computer so I get a digital kick right?

What sort of connection does the trigger use? And can it work with any DAW or would I have to buy Trigger?

And if you don't mind, I'd still like to hear the original so I can see how big the difference is

 

[jimmys69]

Naw man, Trigger is software that uses recorded drums audio as a trigger. I should have called it SSTrigger for clarity.

Here is the same mix without the inserted SSTrigger samples.

 

[cian]

Naw man, Trigger is software that uses recorded drums audio as a trigger. I should have called it SSTrigger for clarity.

Here is the same mix without the inserted SSTrigger samples.

Ah right so the program can listen to the drum recording and recognise the beats and replace them with it's own higher quality ones.

Listening to the two recordings side by side, I can see what you mean. The Trigger one sounds far better. The only problem is that I just think it's too expensive right now. I expect to get it at some stage after hearing how good it sounds but for now, I think we'll just play around with mic placement to try and get the best sound.