How to achieve "pumping" mix?

P

Pykon

New member
Hi again.

Once I came up with idea to make a pop-style mix with characteristic "pumping" drums/lead guitar/bass line.

As far as I know this could be made with a compressor triggered by kick drum/snare signal sum.

It sunds easy theoretically, but in practise it goes unnatural and artificial. To improve I listened to some records and discovered that triggering is not that simple: lead/bass loudness is reduced before kick/snare comes in and the amount of reduction seems to be independent - it doesn't change with how strong the kick drum is beeing played.

I'm sure there must be some other method for a "pumping" mix, and almost sure the triggering track is an artificial midi conttroller line – it's impossible for a naturally recorded drum line to be so even precise.

Any clues, Folks?

mike
 
I am not entirely sure what you are getting out, but here are 2 suggestions:

1) Loud kick drum and compression - set up a loud kick, as in too loud for the mix, and a stereo compressor on the main outputs. The kick will overwhelm the compressor and give a nasty compressor "pump". If this is the sound you are looking for, try it. Analogue compressors might give a more natural sound then software ones.

2) Sidechaining. It basically invovled using a threshold as a trigger for another effect. For example a compressor on the bass guitar could be normally set at 2:1. When the kick fires and trips the threshold, it will move the compression up to 8:1 for the duration of the hole and into the release of the sidechain. Google "sidechaining" for your DAW to guide. Give me a shout if you can't find anything.
 
Pykon said:
Hi again.

Once I came up with idea to make a pop-style mix with characteristic "pumping" drums/lead guitar/bass line.

As far as I know this could be made with a compressor triggered by kick drum/snare signal sum.

It sunds easy theoretically, but in practise it goes unnatural and artificial. To improve I listened to some records and discovered that triggering is not that simple: lead/bass loudness is reduced before kick/snare comes in and the amount of reduction seems to be independent - it doesn't change with how strong the kick drum is beeing played.

I'm sure there must be some other method for a "pumping" mix, and almost sure the triggering track is an artificial midi conttroller line – it's impossible for a naturally recorded drum line to be so even precise.

Any clues, Folks?

mike
Click to expand...


Do a search on NY style compression.
 
Simman said:
Do a search on NY style compression.
Click to expand...

That's just parallel compression. I don't think he's talking about that. Though, I have to admit that I don't really know what he IS talking about. Perhaps the OP can name a few tunes as an example.
 
When the make up gain applied to your signal returns to normal too quickly (when your signal falls below the threshhold) you will hear pumping or breathing as the gain changes. If you want pumping then set a fast release time.
 
RAMI said:
That's just parallel compression. I don't think he's talking about that. Though, I have to admit that I don't really know what he IS talking about. Perhaps the OP can name a few tunes as an example.
Click to expand...

I know what NY style compression is but thanks for playing :D;)
 
RAMI said:
You sure you do??? It's got nothing to do with "pumping", but nice try. :p
Click to expand...

Sorry but I disagree. Using this technique, the signal will pump (breathe) in tempo with the song by adjusting the attack and release settings on the compressor. Which is exactly the point of using this type of (agressive) compression, especially on a drum tracks.

Either way, after rereading the original post, I agree with you that I'm not exactly sure what he's looking for.
 
Simman said:
Sorry but I disagree. Using this technique, the signal will pump (breathe) in tempo with the song by adjusting the attack and release settings on the compressor. Which is exactly the point of using this type of (agressive) compression, especially on a drum tracks.

Either way, after rereading the original post, I agree with you that I'm not exactly sure what he's looking for.
Click to expand...

I was gonna suggest something along these lines, too - (Although I've never heard of "NY compression", I think this is what he's looking for....maybe.....perhaps....)

@Pykon
You can grab a handy dandy delay calculator from here: http://www.analogx.com/contents/download/audio/delay/download.htm

Just put in your tempo, and try the different note lengths it spits out with your attack and release settings. Try it on the main comp, try it on a comp on just the kick - do it on the whole mix with the kick as the sidechain, or do it in parallel on the drum bus, or any bus for that matter - regardless of which compressor you do this with at which point in your chain - Whatever's being compressed will pump - perfectly in time - If you get enough parts pumping together in time, you start to get an effect that's....kinda similar to what you described, I guess.

I mean... you can get big swells that ease off right before the down beat and preemptively make room for the kick with a bit of clever adjustment - The only style I hear this consistently being used in is country, though - not pop. Err... not modern pop, anyway - I've heard a lot of 80s music that did stuff like this. Still... surely this is what you're looking for....right? :confused::confused:
 
I've always achieved the 'pumping' effect in hip/hop mixes by liberally compressing a driving instrument like a bass or strong keys. Like everyone said, you set the attack and release times to coincide with the rhythm of the song.
Use your ears. You can hear/feel it when its in the pocket.

Tony Laughlin
Audio Engineer/Promoter
www.grooveboxmusic.com
 
On most dance records this pumping is achieved by using a kick drum set to a separate independent track that is specifically used as key for the sidechain input of a compressor. Then you route whatever it is that you want to pump to this compressor. The key to understand is that this kick track is not part of the drum kit and is actually inaudible. The only purpose it serves is to trigger the compression. This will give you a lot of control over the timing of the pumping and will make it very predictable as the compressor will be only triggered by the kick sample.

This technique got started by some of the house DJ/producers some time ago where they were sending the reverb to the sidechain compressor. This allowed them to drop everything but have the reverb tail still pumping in rhythm.

Highly overdone nowdays if you ask me.
 
Erm.... If you think about it, you can classify any processor as an "artificial" effect. Come to think of it, the entire recording process is artificial. There is nothing natural about capturing a sound through a transducer and then reproducing it through another transducer. It will definitely sound artificial compared to live, unamplified, acoustic sound :p

At least if we use the words "natural" and "artificial" the way they are thrown around this board.

Although, to me the fact that something exists, it is natural. It maybe in a plasticy sort of way, but it is natural.

And the answer to your question is... "yes" :D
 
noisewreck said:
Erm.... If you think about it, you can classify any processor as an "artificial" effect. Come to think of it, the entire recording process is artificial. There is nothing natural about capturing a sound through a transducer and then reproducing it through another transducer. It will definitely sound artificial compared to live, unamplified, acoustic sound :p
Click to expand...
I agree completely, though I'd make a distinction of intent between an artificial sound that one cannot really help (e.g. the artifice of recording itself) and one that is purposely injected in order to create a something other than an organic sound (e.g. trying to "de-center" a mono vocal track). I'm not judging either as bad or invalid, just making the distinction of definition.

But that's bar argument talk. I'm just saying that this is like the second or third thread in a row that I read where the question was asked why the later type of application, which is purposely meant to be "artificial" sounds "artificial"?

I'm not making light of this either; I think there's something being lost in the translation somehow.

G.
 
Well, I have a good comparison for you.

When I first moved to the US, my English was OK, but I could certainly use some help with conversational English. Well, the first words that I started using the most while in highschool were all the cuss words :D

It's the same with this. Instead of wanting to learn the more useful "words" that would allow them to carry a conversation, i.e. create a good composition, they go after the effective ones that sound "cool" :D
 
First of all I'm gonna make clear what I'm talking about, and it is basically pumping achieved with strong comprerssion on main outputs with tempo-synchronized attack and release times.

I'm familiar with NY compression (which I haven't used for pumping at all) and with sidechaining, but that's something new for me:

Waffleness said:
I am not entirely sure what you are getting out, but here are 2 suggestions:

Sidechaining. It basically invovled using a threshold as a trigger for another effect. For example a compressor on the bass guitar could be normally set at 2:1. When the kick fires and trips the threshold, it will move the compression up to 8:1 for the duration of the hole and into the release of the sidechain. Google "sidechaining" for your DAW to guide. Give me a shout if you can't find anything.
Click to expand...

Am I right that you're talking about trigerring compressor's threshold value with a sidechain signal from kick drum track? I'm not sure if any of compressing plug-ins make this possible.
 
noisewreck said:
On most dance records this pumping is achieved by using a kick drum set to a separate independent track that is specifically used as key for the sidechain input of a compressor. Then you route whatever it is that you want to pump to this compressor. The key to understand is that this kick track is not part of the drum kit and is actually inaudible. The only purpose it serves is to trigger the compression. This will give you a lot of control over the timing of the pumping and will make it very predictable as the compressor will be only triggered by the kick sample.
Click to expand...

That's jus what I was thinkin' about, man!

And it looks like a natural kick drum sample is not the best idea to be used as triggering track for mains' compressor. It's rather an synthetic, artificial-something, like VST sample - and that explains how house mix can contain pumping compression "overtaking" kick drum. Triggering track can be moved backwards a frame or two and this way compressor turns on before a real drum kick we can hear. I'll try that.
 
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