How many mics would you use?

God I hate 2 kick setups. A lot of kit without a lot of return and difficult to get the kicks to sound right together.

Plus all the ones I have come across (4 so far), have the right kick with decent skins and the left kick with beat to shit skins because the drummer didn't want the financial responsibility of keeping a 2 kick setup up to par.

Then there is the tom thing. Setup 6-8 toms only to find they play the kit like it was a 6 piece and the fucker is NEVER in tune. Fuc King never. :spank:


But anyhow if I was putting mics on that kit:

2 kick drum mics
4 rack toms mics like the 57 or D2
2 floor drum tom mics like the D112 or D4
2 overheads
2 cymbal spot mics for the hats and ride if nessesary
2 snare mics, 57 or i5 on top and whatever worked on the bottom (sdc or dynamic)

Possibly a room mic or 2 on top of that.
 
I voluntarily alter my kit to suit the situation. It happens pretty regularly. My full setup is one kick, one snare, 2 rack toms, 2 floor toms. There have been times when a bar or club doesn't have enough mics or channels for all of the toms. The sound flunkee will usually want to split the 4 toms into 2 mics. I'd rather just use two less toms and have them mic'd properly, so that's what I do. Away goes one rack and one floor tom and no one knows the difference. I rock the fuck out all the same. People in the crowd don't know or give a shit if I'm using two less toms than usual. I just adapt and survive and don't worry about stupid things like having to use every square inch of every piece of my drum kit.
 
Greg_L said:
I voluntarily alter my kit to suit the situation. It happens pretty regularly. My full setup is one kick, one snare, 2 rack toms, 2 floor toms. There have been times when a bar or club doesn't have enough mics or channels for all of the toms. The sound flunkee will usually want to split the 4 toms into 2 mics. I'd rather just use two less toms and have them mic'd properly, so that's what I do. Away goes one rack and one floor tom and no one knows the difference. I rock the fuck out all the same. People in the crowd don't know or give a shit if I'm using two less toms than usual. I just adapt and survive and don't worry about stupid things like having to use every square inch of every piece of my drum kit.
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Same sound flunkies also like to dangle a 57 in front of your amp nowhere near where the cone is. I'm sure it sounds amazing. :facepalm:
 
Recording is different from PA, so if the room sounds good, the kit is a stunner and is tuned to perfection, then mic count could be quite low - if this is the sound you want. So if you want a natural stereo recording that's possible, but other than that, it's a mic for every source, plus extras!
 
Guitargodgt said:
Same sound flunkies also like to dangle a 57 in front of your amp nowhere near where the cone is. I'm sure it sounds amazing. :facepalm:
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Yeah I know there are some great sound men out in the world, but seriously, most of them at the local club/bar level are fucking stupid. I've had mics fall off my kit, kick mic stands fall over, hi hat mics fall out of it's clip, my backup vocal mic not work at all.....do they notice? Nope. They're at the bar while the band plays on.
 
Greg_L said:
That's lame. You don't have to be crude about it. Suggesting using a smaller kit for a recording is not an indictment on his skill or gear. Your drummer is either an ego-maniacal douche who's not as good as he thinks he is or you're just not good at getting through to him. A good drummer can adapt and would understand if there are limitations in the recording process. If he wants to sound his best, I'd think he should be okay with using two less toms if that means you can mic everything properly. Whatever the case, there's a level of dysfunction in your band that is not healthy. You should be able to communicate ideas without making everyone butthurt. I know musicians are a fickle insecure bunch of miscreants, but if everyone is on the same page for a recording, then it shouldn't be an issue.
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Well I'm certainly not an expert at recording drums or recording in general (I actually know next to nothing about it, which is why I'm reading this thread, and this forum to begin with), and my response may be a little on the lame side from a recording standpoint, but I have dealt with drummers (and other instrumentalists) who aren't as accommodating about changing their equipment as you are. My suggestion was that if hurt feelings, or conflicts can be avoided by leasing or borrowing a few extra mics, why ask the drummer to change his usual setup and risk alienating an important member of the band if there is an easy fix that can avoid it. In a perfect world all bands should be able to talk this stuff out, but I rarely play with the same group of people, and don't always know all of the people I'm gigging with that well. I played a pit orchestra not too long ago where the percussionist had a cow when we suggested he cut back to the bare minimum, to make room for the rest of us. I've also played a small jazz ensemble job where the pianist suggested the heavy handed sub drummer who was playing with a pair of Lincoln logs on a small jazz ensemble gig to try a lighter pair of sticks or brushes, and he stormed off the gig (which went much better without him). To be fair to drummers, I've also played a big band jazz gig where the guitarist showed up with a strat and marshal stack, although he played nicely he seemed unwilling or unable to play at a volume level appropriate for the ensemble. I realize that not all drummers / or instrumentalists are this egotistical, but I have run into this type of thinking on more occasions than I would like.
 
Radar said:
Well I'm certainly not an expert at recording drums or recording in general (I actually know next to nothing about it, which is why I'm reading this thread, and this forum to begin with), and my response may be a little on the lame side from a recording standpoint, but I have dealt with drummers (and other instrumentalists) who aren't as accommodating about changing their equipment as you are. My suggestion was that if hurt feelings, or conflicts can be avoided by leasing or borrowing a few extra mics, why ask the drummer to change his usual setup and risk alienating an important member of the band if there is an easy fix that can avoid it. In a perfect world all bands should be able to talk this stuff out, but I rarely play with the same group of people, and don't always know all of the people I'm gigging with that well. I played a pit orchestra not too long ago where the percussionist had a cow when we suggested he cut back to the bare minimum, to make room for the rest of us. I've also played a small jazz ensemble job where the pianist suggested the heavy handed sub drummer who was playing with a pair of Lincoln logs on a small jazz ensemble gig to try a lighter pair of sticks or brushes, and he stormed off the gig (which went much better without him). To be fair to drummers, I've also played a big band jazz gig where the guitarist showed up with a strat and marshal stack, although he played nicely he seemed unwilling or unable to play at a volume level appropriate for the ensemble. I realize that not all drummers / or instrumentalists are this egotistical, but I have run into this type of thinking on more occasions than I would like.
Click to expand...

You deal with some real full-tilt assholes. Maybe my point is too utopian. Maybe I'm giving musicians too much credit. I don't act that way, and I'm a total dick 99% of the time, so I would at least expect others to act responsible in regards to working it out for the good of the sound. I just don't see how being reasonable is a bad thing. I prefer to use common sense instead of appeasing some shmoe's ego. If you have 6 mics and 10 drums, something's gotta give. If the drummer can't do simple math for the good of the overall sound, then he's an idiot and the rest of the band is maybe a bunch of idiots for sticking with him.
 
Radar said:
Well I'm certainly not an expert at recording drums or recording in general (I actually know next to nothing about it, which is why I'm reading this thread, and this forum to begin with), and my response may be a little on the lame side from a recording standpoint, but I have dealt with drummers (and other instrumentalists) who aren't as accommodating about changing their equipment as you are. My suggestion was that if hurt feelings, or conflicts can be avoided by leasing or borrowing a few extra mics, why ask the drummer to change his usual setup and risk alienating an important member of the band if there is an easy fix that can avoid it. In a perfect world all bands should be able to talk this stuff out, but I rarely play with the same group of people, and don't always know all of the people I'm gigging with that well. I played a pit orchestra not too long ago where the percussionist had a cow when we suggested he cut back to the bare minimum, to make room for the rest of us. I've also played a small jazz ensemble job where the pianist suggested the heavy handed sub drummer who was playing with a pair of Lincoln logs on a small jazz ensemble gig to try a lighter pair of sticks or brushes, and he stormed off the gig (which went much better without him). To be fair to drummers, I've also played a big band jazz gig where the guitarist showed up with a strat and marshal stack, although he played nicely he seemed unwilling or unable to play at a volume level appropriate for the ensemble. I realize that not all drummers / or instrumentalists are this egotistical, but I have run into this type of thinking on more occasions than I would like.
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I've bolded the bit above because this may be the reason why these guys are giving you such flak for small suggestions. If they perceive you're not an expert, they'll treat you like you're not. That doesn't negate them from being assholes (I agree with Greg) but something tells me that if Andy Wallace or Sir George Martin asked them to change something, they wouldn't have such attitudes.

The other thing I wanted to say is that the type of behaviour you're describing from these guys is completely amateur. I totally agree that any musician with a fair amount of studio experience should know how to adapt his setup for the requirements of recording. For instance, nothing grates me more than when a guitarist comes into my studio and has his shitty multi-FX pedal set up for a simple distortion part when it would sound so much better if he went guitar -> amp. So he persists it's "his sound". Amateurs have safety blankets they need to feel right, and I get that, but if you're going to clutch your blankey you're potentially going to have to settle for a shitty sound. So many drummers have come through my place and insisted on using their shitty snare with old heads that hasn't been tuned in years. After a bit of psychology (engineers and producers are the best shrinks and diplomats, did you know?) they usually concede to try out one of our real snare drums like the Maple Absolute or the Black Panther and it's incredible how the sound improves almost 100% of the time. What I'd rather do, which is what I'm doing in my head, is smack them over the head with that lincoln log while shouting "WAKE UP, YOU FUCKTARD". But alas, this would certainly lose me business.

Cheers :)
 
Greg_L said:
You deal with some real full-tilt assholes. Maybe my point is too utopian. Maybe I'm giving musicians too much credit. I don't act that way, and I'm a total dick 99% of the time, so I would at least expect others to act responsible in regards to working it out for the good of the sound. I just don't see how being reasonable is a bad thing. I prefer to use common sense instead of appeasing some shmoe's ego. If you have 6 mics and 10 drums, something's gotta give. If the drummer can't do simple math for the good of the overall sound, then he's an idiot and the rest of the band is maybe a bunch of idiots for sticking with him.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you I do deal with and have to put up with crap from some real jerks. As primarily a low brass player (with an ever decreasing amount of available playing opportunities) I will take whatever gigs are offered and put up with whatever crap I have to in order to be able to do what I love to do and that's make music. The behavior I describe is amateurish, and perhaps I am too accommodating in order to get the opportunity to play outside of practicing at home. I've only been in the recording studio a handful of times in my career and that was on the player side of the microphone. I have always listened to and followed the directions of those in charge, and that helps me get called back. I've actually had to play bass trombone parts on a large bore tenor horn, at the request of a sound engineer who thought it blended better with the small bore horns the rest of the section were using. I switched horns without even batting an eye, even though there were notes in the charts that were impossible to play on that horn and had to be taken up an octave. So yes I tend to avoid confrontation when possible. My apologies for taking this thread in an off topic direction, I'll go back to lurking.
 
Mo Facta said:
I've bolded the bit above because this may be the reason why these guys are giving you such flak for small suggestions. If they perceive you're not an expert, they'll treat you like you're not. That doesn't negate them from being assholes (I agree with Greg) but something tells me that if Andy Wallace or Sir George Martin asked them to change something, they wouldn't have such attitudes.

The other thing I wanted to say is that the type of behaviour you're describing from these guys is completely amateur. I totally agree that any musician with a fair amount of studio experience should know how to adapt his setup for the requirements of recording. For instance, nothing grates me more than when a guitarist comes into my studio and has his shitty multi-FX pedal set up for a simple distortion part when it would sound so much better if he went guitar -> amp. So he persists it's "his sound". Amateurs have safety blankets they need to feel right, and I get that, but if you're going to clutch your blankey you're potentially going to have to settle for a shitty sound. So many drummers have come through my place and insisted on using their shitty snare with old heads that hasn't been tuned in years. After a bit of psychology (engineers and producers are the best shrinks and diplomats, did you know?) they usually concede to try out one of our real snare drums like the Maple Absolute or the Black Panther and it's incredible how the sound improves almost 100% of the time. What I'd rather do, which is what I'm doing in my head, is smack them over the head with that lincoln log while shouting "WAKE UP, YOU FUCKTARD". But alas, this would certainly lose me business.

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

+1! agree with you 100% here, I had an example with a certain guitarist not being in tune, in time and turning up with the crappiest guitar, effects and amp, and then they expect YOU to fix it...LOL I have also got many a track with terrible sounding snares (for mixing) and instead of recording it again they'd rather settle for mediocrity and then wonder why it doesn't sound as good as the hits on the radio...but what they don't understand is if the energy isn't there, it isn't there...you simply can't polish a tird.
 
Greg_L said:
I voluntarily alter my kit to suit the situation.
Click to expand...

A drummer I jam with regularly uses a 5 pc. kit. One up, 2 down. He's been known to scale the kit back for gigs. Sometimes he doesn't bring toms. He plays fine, he sounds fine and you don't feel like there's anything missing from not having toms on the kit.

He knows how to play.

He did a gig with a guitar player who gave him shit for it once. But the guitar player didn't notice until half way through the third set.
 
snow lizard said:
A drummer I jam with regularly uses a 5 pc. kit. One up, 2 down. He's been known to scale the kit back for gigs. Sometimes he doesn't bring toms. He plays fine, he sounds fine and you don't feel like there's anything missing from not having toms on the kit.

He knows how to play.

He did a gig with a guitar player who gave him shit for it once. But the guitar player didn't notice until half way through the third set.
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Right. You know who else doesn't notice? The drunken morons in the crowd. Even if by some miracle they know one of your songs, they don't know or care when the drummer leaves one tom out of a fill.
 
Greg_L said:
Right. You know who else doesn't notice? The drunken morons in the crowd. Even if by some miracle they know one of your songs, they don't know or care when the drummer leaves one tom out of a fill.
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Maybe I was a little vague. When I said sometimes this guy doesn't bring toms I meant the kit consists of kick, snare and cymbals. He can play all his fills without toms. Sometimes he does bring one or two toms. Sometimes it's the whole kit. I think it changes according to pay scale.
 
snow lizard said:
Maybe I was a little vague. When I said sometimes this guy doesn't bring toms I meant the kit consists of kick, snare and cymbals. He can play all his fills without toms. Sometimes he does bring one or two toms. Sometimes it's the whole kit. I think it changes according to pay scale.
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No I got it. I'm down with all of that. If a guy can play, he will make do and be great on any set up.
 
Radar said:
My apologies for taking this thread in an off topic direction, I'll go back to lurking.
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Don't apologize and don't go back to lurking. Your contribution was actually really important as it brought out some great points from several of the guys that make for good food for thought and also gives us an important insight into you.
It's been an enjoyable and informative thread with a nice cross spread of ideas and experiences.
 
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