How low can you go with a 4x10"?

Henrik

Henrik

Member
Hello,
just a quick one here: This guy told me that what determines a bass speaker's ability to produce the lowest frequencies is the TOTAL area of the speaker cones in the cabinet. So he claimed that a 4x10" cabinet would be able to produce more low end than a 1x15", since the total area of the speaker cones is larger. True or false?

:confused:

Thanks
/Henrik
 
excuse me?
all four 10" are recieving the same signal,right?And they somehow make a deal to share cone area to reproduce those low wavelengths?
It sounds silly to me.But the proof of this idea would be to put a test tone of 30 or 40 Hz into the amp and see what you get.
The 4-10s Fender Bassman design is 40 years old now.Look at all the bass cabinets of today and tell me if you see any multi-10 configuration.

Tom
 
tons of 4x10 cabs being spit out all the time, they are great... a dude I jam with sometimes has an Ampeg 8x10 cabinet, and it will shake a house apart, and I mean that. A 4x10 will definatly quake better than a single 15 inch, but it will be much tighter and focused. Most of the 4x10 cabs also have a HF driver in them too, that is adjustable from the rear panel. Listen to them and see if you like them. They are very nice.
 
Hey Tom, I hope that your reply is supposed to sarcastic. If so I apologize. Otherwise, yeah, I see lots of 4 X 10 cabs for bass. Even a couple of 8 X 10 cabs. My understanding of this question is that the speaker frequency response would determine whether or not it makes a good bass speaker. I've seen 8" speakers that can handle bass. The voice coil seems to be the determining factor--the bigger the coil (in proportion to cone size), the better low frequency response. I may be wrong, though.

Peace, Jim
 
Thanks for all the input, you guys!

Hmmm...I thought this would be a fairly easy one. But it seems there are some different theories. I guess I'll just have to do what Tom says and put a low test tone through the cabinets and compare.

But anyway, I'm considering the Sunn 410 cabinet. Anyone who tried it? Other cabinets I should check out?

Thanks
/Henrik
 
Hmm, this is very interesting.

I am going to *guess* that the issue is not about physical frequency ability, but surface area. Both a 10 inch speaker and a 15 inch speaker might both be capable of, say, accurately dipping down to 40hz. However, the 15 inch speaker is physically moving more air than the 10 inch. Now you take 4 10 inchers and the tables turn perhaps.

That's of course assuming that a 10 inch speaker and a 15 inch speaker are both capable of reproducing super low frequencies. Phyiscally, the 15 inch should be able to get lower than the 10 inch because it'll have a longer throw (right?). But there comes a point where theory meets practicality. If a 10 inch speaker can reproduce sound down to the limits of human hearing, then a larger speaker might not be necessary after all....depending on the application. I know that subwoofers typically only have 8 or 10 inch speakers, but I think they achieve ultra low frequncies because they're in tightly sealed enclosures.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Just warning you :)

I bet Harvey would know this stuff...

Slackmaster 2000
 
Please test this out and let us know what your results are.It seems counter-intuitive that 300 2.5" tweeters (to carry the theory reductum ad absurdam) wired in series parallel or any way you want could generate a longer wavelength than a single 15".

The key phrase from the original post was "ability to produce the lowest frequencies".Wavelengths are in proportion to the size of the wave generator;e.g. a trumpet and a tuba both use similar technology but the trumpet can't hit the low notes the tuba is capable of.

The interesting part to me is the contention that pairs or larger groupings of speakers somehow "share" their surface area to produce lower wavelengths then a single speaker could do alone.Power handling does goes up with more speakers to share the load,but I am having trouble understanding the mechanism by which the freq responce is increased.

Tom
 
My bass player went from using a small Hatrke combo with 1 15" speaker to using a Gallien-Kruger combo with 2 10" speakers an attenuators for the speakers and the hf horn. The GK just blows away the Hartke sound-wise. It seems to have more "gut-rattling" ability as well.

I can't give you numbers and math, but I know what I see and hear from it...and the 210 is the superior package.

H2H
 
But isn't Slack on to something here? After all, producing low frequencies means moving large amounts of air. Couldn't it be that the cones reinforce each other? None of us posting here can't lift 100 kg (well, I know I can't), but four of us together can. Isn't it basically the same thing? (Which would mean 300 tweeters would make the house shake. Agreed, it sounds a bit odd).

I feel so naïve to have thought this was an easy one...

:D
 
Let's find out!
Someone on this board must have both a 4-10s cab and a single 15",or have the one and can borrow the other.
I offer a software test tone generator
http://tom.artistcollaboration.com/test.exe
to anyone who wants to try.

General guidelines:,most speakers are rated in dB at 1 watt at 1 meter.I suggest the line out from the soundcard to the amp head ,with all settings of the internal mixer and external amp kept identical with both cabinets tested,with the mike also the same distance from the cone in both tests,measured by either the vu meter on your mixer or the software vu level,your choice.
Pick a freq and start testing.Keep lowering the frequencies and the graph of your test readings will tell the tale!

Anecdotal B.S. - my bass player played his last gig a week ago and we auditioned a replacement last night.Old rig was a P into a Bassman w/4 tens.New rig is a G&L into a Hartke with a single 15".The drummer and I commented to each other that we percieved the new bass tone as being lower and deeper sounding.

Tom
 
But isn't Slack on to something here? After all, producing low frequencies means moving large amounts of air. Couldn't it be that the cones reinforce each other? None of us posting here can't lift 100 kg (well, I know I can't), but four of us together can. Isn't it basically the same thing? (Which would mean 300 tweeters would make the house shake. Agreed, it sounds a bit odd).

I feel so naïve to have thought this was an easy one...

:D
 
This is a very complex subject with many variables. While the details and mathmatics are way over my head I have followed path of ultimate bass tone for many years, subscribe to Basssplayer and read everything I can.

First of all we will all percieve "lowest tone and most pleasing tone differently so I like the idea of using the frequency analyzer as an objective measure.

Secondly I don't know if I believe the increased speaker area = increased lowend reproduction potential. I have noticed by experience and reviews that the if same manufacturer has a similiar 2-10" and a 4-10" (or 4 versus 8) the cab with the most speakers sounds fuller or more massive and we are more aware of the bass frequencies but I have seen 6" or 8" home audio speakers rated to produce frequencies below 40Hz wich is getting below what we can physically hear. What I do believe is that it is easier (read less expensive) to get lower
frequencies from a 15" design than a 4-10". But easier is not always better.

Lastly I would like to recomend checking out a three part series in Bassplayer (No I am not on the payroll) on cabinet design that covers tweeters, woofers and the often overlooked cabinet design that probably affects tone and low frequency potential more than than the speaker size and the number of speakers used combined. The series runs from the July - September 2001 issues under the amp clinic column. Septembers issue covers the cabinet design part.

Bottom line is everyone has a different preference even Pro's with an unlimited budget and they use any thing from 18" to 15" to 10"s and multiple combinations there in.

I used to use a biamped Peavey Mark IV with the high end going into a Peavey Bandit with an open back 1-12" and a single 15" cab for the lowend that was a massive improvement from the 15" by itself. I also ran a 2-12" bass cabinet with that rig on large gigs that seemed to add some mid range "sweetness" to the sound and I could fit the whole rig in the back of a 91 Celica hatchback.

I would pick your budget and try everything you can get your hands on that fits in your budget.
And you can always add on as the 1-15" cab with a 4-10" stacked on top seems to be very popular today.

Scott
 
Thanks a lot for this great reply, Scott! I think you're right that there is a lot more in a cabinet that determines the ability to produce low frequencies than only the speaker cones themselves.

So if anybody wants to make a just comparison (with test tones and everything), it would have to be between two speakers that are equally designed apart from the speaker cones used.

Also, thanks for the tip about Bass Player. I'm pretty sure I can find it here in Sweden too.

Cheers
/Henrik
 
Here's some input from my friend the engineer:

For a desired loudness,
the amount of air a cone needs
to move is inversely proportional to frequency.
So for low frequencies, a cone needs to move large
amounts of air to produce low frequencies. So if
you want to play something loud, and you want the
low frequencies to be undistorted, then a large
cone is better.

However, for most small rooms,
and studios in general, you may not want to play
something so loud, and so one doesn't always need
to have a large cone. A speaker with small
cones will also be able to have an undistorted
response at low frequencies, but it won't be able
to produce as loud a sound as the speaker with
a large cone (if you turn up the volume too much,
the sound will be distorted at the low frequencies
because the single cone will not be able to move
as much air). If you have a speaker with lots
of small cones, you may be able to get as loud
a sound at low frequencies as a speaker with a
single large cone, but the design is trickier.

Hope this helps!

/Henrik
 
Hi Henrick,

I kinda forgot about this thread but yeah the stuff your engineer friend said sounds about right from my understanding.

One other quircky thing about bass frequencies and cabinets. Most of my playing live lately has been at church in a smaller auditorium. When I get the bass level out of the cabinet right to my ears to balance out with the live drums it is "too loud" at the back of the room where the soundman is (we were not running the bass direct).

With the bass frequencies being lower and therefore the wavelength's being longer it is often hard to get far enough in front of the cabinet to hear the peak volume levels. When I get the levels right for the room I can not hear myself well. It sounds flat and muffled. If I get it sounding punchy but not overbearing to me it is too loud for the mix. Our sound man did not mind rhe overall sound too loud for sure but he wanted everything mixed of course.
 
because the low end is omni-directional by nature, the difference between a 4x10 and a 1x15 would be nominal to the ear...this is especially true when you have it cranked and you're in a small venue...this would be an easy way to prove it out, if you just have to.
 
Speaking as someone who uses at 4x10, a 1x15 Cab, and an 8x10, I can say that there are a couple points your missing here. A 4x10 will provide more volume than a 1x15 but not because of the surface area statement which would be about 300si vs 175si.

1) A 4x10 cabinet almost always will operate at a greater efficiency than the 1x15. Efficiency peaks long before capacity, and a 4x10 cab usually rates the capacity at less than the total of the 4. Eg a 100W 4x10 cab often has 4 35W speakers, allowing them to operate closer to optimal performance. 100W through four 35W speakers will be a fair bit louder than 100W through one 100W speaker regardless of diameters.

2) 15 inch speakers will push a lot of air, but because of the larger driver, are less able to provide the overtones necessary for DEFINITION. So frequently the 15's don't sound as loud as they really are because of the lack of definition.

In my last large band, I used the Trace combo 4X10, and the GK 1x15 for myself, and left an SVT sidewashing the drummer, who played at a ridiculous volume. I started with just the Trace, and added the GK 1X15 for the express purpose of rumbling my chest. It was more for feel than extra sound.
 
LOL finally someone who has actually TRIED these things... great post jvasey, thanks.

Speaking of speakers, there is one other thing I have never had someone explain to me: I know you measure the amp's power in watts. But how does the speaker's watt figure relate to that of the amp? Should you always match the speaker's and the amp's watt figures, or is it good if the speaker's watt figure is higher than the amp's, etc etc etc.

:confused:

I admit it, I really don't have much of a clue on these issues (but I'm a pretty good bass player).
 
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