How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

[prw]

Paul can you tell me what preamps they are using to make the 770 sound so good?What is D&R is their a website

I've used MXL with Neve Portico $1,440.00, Groove Tube ViPRE $2995.00, and D&R $495.00. They all sound very close. MXL's sound great through anything.

Please don't beat me up. I'm not advertising only answering questions......

www.softfiles.com/D&R.html for D&R products.

 

[mikey@thecave]

no i was just askin about the preamps because a great preamp can really help a mic out if you know what i mean..
So that little D&R two channel preamp is only 495$ is that the one..?is that the same pre that is in those consoles?How long has D&R been around?
Loosen up Paul a little advertisment is ok hear we are just talkin and everybody is interested in new gear that can improve or add to the gear they already have...besides i just noticed i'm a Senior Member and next year i'll be a senior citizen

 

[prw]

D&R & Stuff

Well, I've been with D&R for 19 years and they were around 10 or 12 years before I came along. Yes, it is the half rack size Mic Amp. Actually, it has the latest mic pre IC so it specs out better than our earlier consoles.

Warning!!!! If what you are looking for is quiet, clean, no additives, true reproduction, then the D&R is the one. Very close to the new Neve at 1/3 the price. I own a Neve Portico. I just purchased a Trident S20 but haven't tried it yet. I've gone through many different mic pres looking for that "fat, ballsie" old Neve & API sound but have not found it. Friends from all over the world have suggested many things but none have worked for me. I love the D&R Mic Amp on most things, but sometime I want additives. Even fat on a ribeye is good sometime.

D&R is known for two major features.... extremely quiet and transparent and the best phase spec in the industry. CAD had (phase) bragging rights for a while but they no longer make the consoles.

 

[mikey@thecave]

well i did some snooping and found out more about the D&R company..And what i gathered was the older consoles had that warm sound because of the tubes..And the new preamps are not like that but on the clean detailed side..is that right..boy that is a killer price

 

[prw]

D&R Mic Amp

Where did you read that D&R made tube stuff? Maybe 30 years ago Duco deRijk the owner and analog designer might have made a tube mixer for PA but I know of nothing in the last 25 years. Are you sure it not some other company? D&R Electronica in Weesp, Holland, The Netherlands. Their web site is: www.d-r.nl

Paul

 

[mikey@thecave]

yes thats where i read it.is that a different company..

 

[prw]

well i did some snooping and found out more about the D&R company..And what i gathered was the older consoles had that warm sound because of the tubes..And the new preamps are not like that but on the clean detailed side..is that right..boy that is a killer price

I reread your post and maybe I misunderstood. Yes, the older mic pres were tube (before transistors) and they sounded great but back in those days were a little noisey. To be completely honest with you, I think most of this HIGH PRICED "vintage" newly manufactured equipment is a bit of a ripoff. I compared a Manley Gold Reference mic ($5,500.00) to an MXL V69 ($300.00 street price) and the Manley sounded like it had a quilt over it. I have an original George Neumann U87 with new diaphram and the MXL V69 makes it sound dull. I've used the Groovetube mic pre and just wasn't that impressed. Maybe it's just me. I know what I like and several years ago You would never catch me using "cheap" mic pres or mics. Now at 61, I'm strickly into how good does it sound.

Bottom line..... manufactures need to stop selling the hype.

Paul

 

[mikey@thecave]

paul; well i'd like to hear some stuff recorded with the Mxl's

 

[Harvey Gerst]

.

Well,

As others have said, wow and thank you. I do believe in my search of information for anything music related this has been the one place I know I will return to. Thank you Harvey for your incredible gift of knowledge here. All that and in check. So here I am.. primarily singer/songwriter trying to get enough information to not blindly pay monies I don't have for production that is poor quality in addition to being knowledgable enough to let a master work or help a future master get me the product I want and need. So my question is with limited knowledge but hopefully is of some benefit to others in addition to myself.

First question: As I have read and it makes total sense, when recording you really would like somewhat minimal effects as they can then be changed, added to, but as you stated, not taken away from (page 10?) My first thought is yes that is very true. But then as a singer, I listen very closely to what I do. I want the best end product and tend to be fairly talented so.. I recognize my limitations with not understanding how the music will come together, the space where my vocals need to fit within the mix so that they stand out and that the sound may be differnt than what my preference is... but then I also consider that if those things are best put into the stereo headphone mix when recording then I can get the feel of that and perform accordingly with passion that fits the music. (Wow does that sound corny). So where is the balance? I hate showing my ignorance here too but can the headphones of my listening to myself be adjusted to what sounds good to me yet recorded fairly dry? Or would the answer be to record both ways? I usually find that the engineer is right and I have taken time to learn that thus trust is of utmost importance, but I have been disappointed when I didn't speak up in the past also and ended up with a less than acceptable end product.. thus my desire to understand the art better.

You can usually set up a mixer to feed all the effects you could want to the headphone mix, while leaving the recording signal pristine. You hear the effects; the engineer gets the dry signal.

Second,

When I have used different types of microphones in home studios and others, rather than using a condensor, my preference was pretty much - and funny enough maybe - to move back and forth from the mic so that when I was quiet I had the effect I wanted and when I was powerful I was way back. It worked. Similar to "working a mic" while performing and getting the desired affects. Because i am hearing the affect I have for the most part I think i am able to control it but I would like to know if this is just useless movement, if it creates problems in production or if in fact it does have a more natural feel and sound? Any other comments too. I do know that what folks end up hearing, they absolutely love! And that is what it is all about really to me.

No, it's not useless and I wish more singers would learn mic technique.

Last, just for working on vocal tracks in a pre-final cut song... (I write too) During the collaboration process which is many times done on-line right now, I am looking for a thrifty recording set up and mic that will work to get my desired affect. Song shopping exposure etc.. What equipment might you suggest for that or should I simply spend the monies on a studio for something so basic?

Thank you so much for the info. As I record more and more myself I am sure it will be a site I look to for years to come.

Debbie Vicari

A four channel digital recorder with a couple of mic inputs and a few mics will do fine for your intended purpose.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I hope I'm not intruding.... the MXL 770 is a great sounding mic that sounds similar to the Neumann U-47 (some say it sounds better) and it sells for less than $100.00. Three other engineers have tested both and picked the 770. I've not tried it myself, however, I do have a Neumann U87 (new diaphram) and I tried an MXL V69 tube mic side by side on a female vocal and it sounded much better than the Neumann. I think I'll sell my U87 now.

Paul

Paul the 770 has a 603 capsule with a rising high end response. It doesn't sound like a U47 to me, but maybe with the right preamp...

The MXL V69 is a different story; I like it better than the new Neumann U87ai.

 

[mikey@thecave]

hi harvey;; is Brent Casey with MXL now i thought he was with Studio Projects??Is he a designer of microphones?
Have you heard the 604"S i wuld imagine they are the same as the 603's
Another thing i want to ask you is when your recording with these Mxls i would think you have the best preamps in the world..Are you one to use the same preamps for a recording or have you alot of outboard preamps that you will use on a song

 

[Harvey Gerst]

hi harvey;; is Brent Casey with MXL now i thought he was with Studio Projects??Is he a designer of microphones?
Have you heard the 604"S i wuld imagine they are the same as the 603's
Another thing i want to ask you is when your recording with these Mxls i would think you have the best preamps in the world..Are you one to use the same preamps for a recording or have you alot of outboard preamps that you will use on a song

Brent Casey started out at MXL and that's where I first met him. He wasn't a "designer", but he got very good at it, very quickly.

We got the 604's in a few days ago, but I haven't heard them yet. My son Alex has already used them and said he really likes them, but no details yet.

While we have a lot of very nice outboard preamps, I tend to use the mixer preamps on about 98% of the stuff I record. My son Alex is the one who goes outboard preamp crazy, but I can't argue with his results.

 

[mikey@thecave]

interesting ;; ill be curious about your feelings on the 604's ,,sound like they may have changed them a little..
What board might that be that you use.? It seems to me like using the same preamp for the song is like having the all the players in the same room..Do you know what i mean..O h well i guess both ways work good..

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Yes, the 604's have a pad and bass rolloff switch, plus the omni capsule. When I have time, I intend to do a direct comparison to the 603's.

Studio B (where I do most of my recording) has a Soundtracs 32x8 Topaz board. Studio A has an MCI 56x32 console. Alex's mixdown room has an SSL 4048GL+ console.

 

[mikey@thecave]

thats sounds cool you have your son working with you.
I hope they didn't mess with the magic that the 603's makes..
do you mean that the 604's have 2 capsules?ill check into it.
Since i have the T3 (c-12 type) i'd like to go into a more U-47 Type mic i guess that a little less bright and just about as colored.Have you ever used AKG's ''solid tube'' mic

 

[prw]

Size does matter

Hey Harvey, I'm not sure this is the right forum for this, but since we were talking about mics and pres ....... just for information sake, I did a recording session on a female gospel singer yesterday in which I used three different mic pres with two Marshall MXL V67 mics in a stereo configuation.

I did four tracks of the same vocal and the result is as follows:


Trident S-20 Track 1 Sounded OK $1,000.00

D&R Mic Amp Track 2 Sounded much better $ 495.00

Neve Portico Track 3 Sounded the same as D&R $1,440.00

Neve Portico with "Silk" switch on. Track 4 Sounded Great and yes, sounded better than the D&R. However, I will try to simulate that sound using the D&R Mic Amp with a little high freq. I'm let you know the result.

Marshall V67 mic street price $99.00

I plan on making a CD with all of the above on it so I can let others hear with their own ears.

Paul

 

[mikey@thecave]

now i remember what i wanted to ask you Harvey...
Some of these preamps they have out now have a mic impedence (current sensor)feature.Is there anything to this in your opinion?Do you know what i mean? thanks

 

[Harvey Gerst]

It can possibly increase the gain a bit by a better match, but some mics aren't designed for best sound at max current transfer, and the frequency response can suffer.

 

[prw]

now i remember what i wanted to ask you Harvey...
Some of these preamps they have out now have a mic impedence (current sensor)feature.Is there anything to this in your opinion?Do you know what i mean? thanks

Hey Mikey,

I had a Groovetube ViPRE with impedence switching. Every mic I tried always sounded best with the switch on 300 ohms. I don't know why they put the other impedence settings on it. Any ideas Harvey?

Paul

 

[cpl_crud]

Hi.
I'm not sure if the topic of impeadance has been covered throughly in this thread (i used to follow this thread for a while, but then got quite busy), but here's a quick rundown. (If Impedance has been covered, then just skip this post)

Audio signals, as a wave, don't "flow" down a cable as a current would. Whilst there is a small amount of current moving back and forward along the conductors, the actual "signal" moves between the active and neutral conductors, which act as a "wave guide".

Think quickly of a wave travelling down a long string, made of two seperate lengths of strings of different thinkness. If you send a wave down this, you'll notice that there is some information "bounced" back (this is basic high-scholl physis, I'm sure we're all aware of this effect).

What's happeneing there is a an impeadance mis-match. This also happens in audio signals- the wave travels down the wave-guide (cable) until it his a barrier (the pre-amp). If the signal sees the same impedance (the rope is of teh same thickness) then the entire signal passes into the preamp to be processed.

However, if the impedance isn't matched, some of the signal is reflected back up the wave guide, towards the microphone, where it can be reflected (again) and turn up as an echo, or as other distortion.

So, in an ideal world, setting your pre-amp impedance to the impedance of your microphone will get you the "most correct" sound. However, as we all know, the most correct sound isn't always the best sounding one, and this is why, prw, that you are finind that they all sound good at 300 ohms. (Antoher interesting note, the Mackie 800r actaully has a slight phase change built-in to it's variable impedance circut. Odd.)

A couple of side-notes on impedance matching:
-Stealth aircraft/tanks/ships all use impedance-matching paint to limit radar reflections; they match the impedance of the surface to that of air, so it limits the immedate amount of radar imformation reflected

-"Ghosting" on old TV sets can, occascionally, be caused by impedance mis-match

-you can use impedance mismatch to "secure" transmission lines- if someone tries to take a split of your transmission line, you will get an unexpected reflection from that split, and this ca nbe detected (this effect is used to secure secret military fibre-optic networks, like Austriala's JSST Network).

So there you go, a quick run- down on impedance matching.

Hope this helped, and that I didn't repeat someone else.
Cam