How do I get a thicker tone?

D

Descalabro

New member
Hello.

I do direct recording, I live at an apartment and I can't afford a good tube amp anyway, so I have chosen this method for my recordings.

I used to record with a EH Metal Muff pedal and a Vox AC 30 Amplug.

The Vox AC 30 provided a warm and thick tone and the Metal Muff provided the extra crunchy sound I need.

The problem was the AC 30 had a background noise like an old tape recorder (even while playing), and it runned on batteries so it was not reliable for recording. I also wanted something a bit easier to control and to have higher quality gear for higher quality recording.

I recently bought a Presonus Firebox and a Damage Control Demonizer pedal. The Demonizer is pretty cool, it has a very warm and raging sound, but the sound is lacking a bit of lower tone. I mean, with the Vox AC 30 amplug I didn't have this problem because it acted like a replacement for the amp, but the Demonizer, even though it's made for direct recording lacks a tone control. I need my guitar sound to be 'bassier', to have more body.

I tried to equalize the sound with my recording software, playing around with the lower frequencies, but didn't help.

How can I do this? :confused:

I need any tips on how to do this, preferably in a digital way.

Listen at http://soundcloud.com/descalabro/tracks

Thanks.
 
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Having a quick scout through you're previous posts it looks like you're recording metal.

This might all be jumping to assumptions, but it sounds like you're making all these tone judgements when listening to the guitar parts by themselves, whether they're the only thing you've recorded (maybe for test recordings to try and get the tone you want) or you're listening to them in solo?

How far am I out so far?


Anyway, this isn't to be taken as 'the way to do it', but usually you wouldn't actually want much low end in thick guitar parts, especially if they're being hard-panned - they just end up turning to a muddy mush at the bottom. It is uncommon to see people boosting in the low end like you've been trying, however it is not uncommon to HPF anywhere as high as 150hz, if not higher.

But this ends up leaving the guitars sounding quite (sometimes really) thin, so why would you want to do this? Well you always have to consider everything in the context of a mix.

Cutting the low-end from the guitars leaves room for the bass and prevents mud from building up, and then the bass becomes the well-defined driving low-end for the mix. The guitars may sound thin by themselves, but in a mix they might sound like they have a really chunky low-end! It slightly depends on the arrangement, but usually the bass and guitar parts will share a similar rhythm and so if the bass and guitar parts are both tightly played, they will end up 'locking together'.
 
mattr said:
Having a quick scout through you're previous posts it looks like you're recording metal.

This might all be jumping to assumptions, but it sounds like you're making all these tone judgements when listening to the guitar parts by themselves, whether they're the only thing you've recorded (maybe for test recordings to try and get the tone you want) or you're listening to them in solo?

How far am I out so far?


Anyway, this isn't to be taken as 'the way to do it', but usually you wouldn't actually want much low end in thick guitar parts, especially if they're being hard-panned - they just end up turning to a muddy mush at the bottom. It is uncommon to see people boosting in the low end like you've been trying, however it is not uncommon to HPF anywhere as high as 150hz, if not higher.

But this ends up leaving the guitars sounding quite (sometimes really) thin, so why would you want to do this? Well you always have to consider everything in the context of a mix.

Cutting the low-end from the guitars leaves room for the bass and prevents mud from building up, and then the bass becomes the well-defined driving low-end for the mix. The guitars may sound thin by themselves, but in a mix they might sound like they have a really chunky low-end! It slightly depends on the arrangement, but usually the bass and guitar parts will share a similar rhythm and so if the bass and guitar parts are both tightly played, they will end up 'locking together'.
Click to expand...

Yep. What he said. You've really got to work in the context of a mix before you can hear what your guitar sounds need--or don't need, for that matter.
 
Yup...what they said. :cool:

Also try double tracking all the guitars. Not just copy/paste but play the same part twice. Helped to fatten up my goodz.
 
in addittion to the other good comments i just got Izotone Trash which does a passable of imitating different sounds (i have a Music Man-65 and i was able to create a preset that sounded pretty similar). after you've got things mic'd and eq'd it might be a good "finishing move"
 
I've never had much luck recording guitars strictly in the digital domain. But if this is your only choice then record a dry track and use plugins. You can take the output of a dry guitar track and feed it back through your pedal. This might give you some flexibly to adjust your parameters while listening back. For whatever reason distortion pedals end up sounding way to digital when they are brought in directly. If I understand you correctly this is the kind of sound your getting. The guitar has biting mids with no body or growl to it. It can almost be painful to listen to.

Also, with this method you never have a dry guitar track to process or re-amp. It's a little too restricting for my taste. I trade any guitar processor or pedal to work with a real guitar amp and SM57.


Mike
 
This might all be jumping to assumptions, but it sounds like you're making all these tone judgements when listening to the guitar parts by themselves, whether they're the only thing you've recorded (maybe for test recordings to try and get the tone you want) or you're listening to them in solo?
Click to expand...

Well, you're right about the bass part, I didn't record a bass yet because I need a 5 string and I'm lefthanded, but I'll work it out. As for the mix I have so far, it has drums (VST) and keyboards (VST) in some parts.

However, I'm comparing my guitar tracks to the ones I had before. They sound more 'in your face' but they lack that fat low end the previous recordings had. I know they will sound different with a Bass but still, I am looking for a thicker guitar tone on itself. Knowing what I could get from the previous guitars' tone I simply I'm not fully happy with this tone I'm getting now.

The pedal was meant for direct recoding, I even replaced the tubes for sound quality, but still I need a bit more tone, without sounding muddy.

Thanks for reading.
 
Zeppe said:
I've never had much luck recording guitars strictly in the digital domain. But if this is your only choice then record a dry track and use plugins. You can take the output of a dry guitar track and feed it back through your pedal. This might give you some flexibly to adjust your parameters while listening back. For whatever reason distortion pedals end up sounding way to digital when they are brought in directly. If I understand you correctly this is the kind of sound your getting. The guitar has biting mids with no body or growl to it. It can almost be painful to listen to.

Also, with this method you never have a dry guitar track to process or re-amp. It's a little too restricting for my taste. I trade any guitar processor or pedal to work with a real guitar amp and SM57.


Mike
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm being an idiot, but I'm trying my best to get an analog sound even with pedals. That's why I bought a tube pedal. I would really like to take advantage of it, because the pedal has a very nice sound. If it were for Death Metal it would be fine, but I'm recording Doom Metal, I need a bit more thickness.

However, I will try to do dry recording and add some plugins to hear the result.

Thanks.
 
I'm going to be honest: you're likely going to have a tough time getting anything resembling the tone you're going for, without using similar methods to achieve said tone. Meaning, if you like the tone on pretty much any record you've ever heard, you're very likely listening to the obvious and classic combo of putting a mic in front of a speaker/amp (or very likely, several microphones on several speakers/amps, and with multiple performances).

In addition, you really can't sluff off needing bass tracks to thicken guitars. Regardless of how your previous tracks sounded, the bass guitar has a hell of a lot to do with the thickness you hear on most metal records (and most other drum/guitar/bass/vox-centered records, for that matter).

All of that said, if you're in an apartment and you're trying to keep everything quiet while recording loud music, I'd suggest getting a smallish practice amp that you like the sound of, and a few moving blankets and/or heavy pillows, along with an SM57. That way, you can actually turn the amp up without pissing anybody off, and you'll remove the handicap you're giving yourself by not recording with an amplifier. You may discover that combining a DI-tone with an amp tone could give you the thickness you're looking for!



P.S. This, and millions of other posts, are USELESS without audio clips. Go to soundcloud.com and put your stuff up so we can listen and give you useful advice, vs. random theory and conjecture based on verbal communication of audio information.
 
steve is right... DI-ing guitars will do you no favours in the way of tone.

maybe compress your guitar signal a little bit, or double track... or try using some kind of valve pre amp in your signal chain to your computer. they're not so expensive these days.
 
lovetara said:
steve is right... DI-ing guitars will do you no favours in the way of tone.

maybe compress your guitar signal a little bit, or double track... or try using some kind of valve pre amp in your signal chain to your computer. they're not so expensive these days.
Click to expand...

Thanks for answering

Well, the Demonizer is a Valve(tube - same thing?) pre amp.
 
Dogbreath said:
Yup...what they said. :cool:

Also try double tracking all the guitars. Not just copy/paste but play the same part twice. Helped to fatten up my goodz.
Click to expand...

Thanks for answering.

I already use 2 guitars, and I'm considering on using 3 most of the time and also 4 sometimes, because I like a lot of melodic layers. So, that would be too much to double record, and also I'm not that tight on my playing.

Samples at http://soundcloud.com/descalabro/tracks
 
Zeppe said:
For whatever reason distortion pedals end up sounding way to digital when they are brought in directly. If I understand you correctly this is the kind of sound your getting. The guitar has biting mids with no body or growl to it. It can almost be painful to listen to.
Mike
Click to expand...

Yes, that's it, although not that bad, hehe. It just lacks some body, I don't want them to get muddy though.

Samples here: http://soundcloud.com/descalabro/tracks
 
adamvelvetu said:
in addittion to the other good comments i just got Izotone Trash which does a passable of imitating different sounds (i have a Music Man-65 and i was able to create a preset that sounded pretty similar). after you've got things mic'd and eq'd it might be a good "finishing move"
Click to expand...

Thanks for answring, I will check that.

By the way, is there any kind of pre-amp made for direct recording that allows you to control your sound like an amp, adding tone, treble, etc?

Samples here: http://soundcloud.com/descalabro/tracks
 
there are volume pedals so that would amp things up and give you a control before feeding the signal in for recording. if you run through a mixing board before going into your audio interface that would have the same effect too.
 
adamvelvetu said:
there are volume pedals so that would amp things up and give you a control before feeding the signal in for recording. if you run through a mixing board before going into your audio interface that would have the same effect too.
Click to expand...

Ok, what do you think about these for the mixers:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/502.aspx

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/802.aspx

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1730

http://www.tapcoworld.com/products/mixseries/index.html

http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/EUR...Phonic-MU502-Compact-Mixer/art-REC0007296-000

And for pedal:

http://www.behringer.de/EN/Products/GDI21.aspx

http://www.jeverman.com/thepot.html this one is possibly the only beautiful pedal I've ever seen.


I wonder if the mixer would be a better choice to avoid having more noise sources...

Please also tell me your suggestions keeping in mind I'll be recording one thing at a time (no need for large gear).

Thanks
 
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double tracking is a great to fatten up powerchords, solos and riffs.

some of nirvanas songs actually have up to 4-5 guitar parts playing the same thing but different tones/mic placements/amp (done without kurt knowing, as he thought the engineer was just asking for a second take etc..)

maybe use a room mic and record the room ambience.

or if your thinking more digital maybe get guitar rig. i am currently using it for a project im doing (i normally hate digital guitar gear!) i am so impressed with the sounds you can achieve. and its handy when the house is noisy as you can still record without unwanted noise.

dave
 
daveblue222 said:
double tracking is a great to fatten up powerchords, solos and riffs.

some of nirvanas songs actually have up to 4-5 guitar parts playing the same thing but different tones/mic placements/amp (done without kurt knowing, as he thought the engineer was just asking for a second take etc..)
Click to expand...

Thanks for answering.

That's a curious thing you said about Nirvana. I had no idea. I'm still considering double tracking my guitars. But because I'm planing on record different melodies on up to 4 guitars, and since I'm not that much of a tight player, I must try that carefully. Even with different configurations, I must be careful not to multiply my noise or undesired sounds. Also, I still think that I may get some advantage on combining my tube distortion pedal with a tone pedal.


daveblue222 said:
or if your thinking more digital maybe get guitar rig. i am currently using it for a project im doing (i normally hate digital guitar gear!) i am so impressed with the sounds you can achieve. and its handy when the house is noisy as you can still record without unwanted noise.
Click to expand...

Yes, I heard Guitar Rig can do wonders, but even though I have chosen to do direct recording I'm trying to stay on the analog side and use real gear. I know an important part of the future will depend on the digital, but learning the analog way may be better for me. And I just think that I spent 200$ on a good pedal, I better use it. Hehe.
 
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