Home band recording

[Davpmars]

My kids have started a home band! We’ve got a piano player on a Yamaha digital piano, an electric guitar player with a boss katana MkII 2-12 amp, and a drummer on a Yamaha acoustic drum set.

I record them playing with a Canon DSLR camera and a simple shotgun mic mounted on top of the camera.

I’m trying to upgrade my recording process and manage the sound volume coming from each instrument. I am buying a Zoom H6 and connect it to the Canon camera with a 3.5mm cord. Does this sound like a decent idea?

The Boss amp and drums drown-out the piano speakers. I’d like to find a way to connect the piano to the Boss amp but I’m not sure how. At the moment, i can connect either the piano or the guitar to the amp but not both at the same time. What can I purchase that will allow this?

I’d appreciate a conversation as I’m sure I will have more questions. Thanks!

 

[jamesperrett]

I would record the video and audio separately and then sync them up later (though I would record a rough sound on the camera to make syncing easier later). Use the mics on the H6 to pick up the drums and any other loud sounds in the room. You can then plug an output from the piano into one of the H6 TRS inputs and also possibly take an output from the guitar amp to another H6 input. You can then import the audio and video files into something like Reaper which will allow you to sync them up easily..

I wouldn't try connecting the piano to a guitar amp - it really needs its own amp or you maybe need to think about a general PA setup. If the kids decide they want to add vocals then they may need a PA anyway. I was impressed with the sound and simplicity of the Yamaha StagePAS system when we rehearsed with one.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Honestly, your best bet is to record the audio separately and merge it to the video in post. That's what I do with a Zoom H5 and my four Handycams and two GoPros.

As far as the amp, what you really need is a PA system, even a small one, to let the piano compete with the guitar and drums. The PA could also take some vocals if that is needed.

The way I use my H5 to record a live band is to place it close to stage to capture all the "loud stuff" (drums and amps), then run a cable from the PA (which will have vocals and anything else that didn't make enough volume on its own) to the line input of the H5. I import those files, balance them and export them to a stereo file. Then I import the stereo file to a project in a video editor with the files from the camera, line them up to the camera audio, mute the camera audio and go from there.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

James' post happened while I was composing mine. Great minds...

 

[keith.rogers]

First, while you can send a signal to the DSLR, probably, you'll have more control over the quality of the mix if you plan to learn how to mix recorded tracks from each instrument in a computer "DAW" (digital audio workstation), so you can fine tune the balance between instruments. Then, as others just posted while I was typing - sync the audio and video in post. (oops - also typing while others did the same)

I would get the XLR adapter for the H6 so you can record 6 separate tracks without using the X-Y mics. But, of course, you can record with those mics, and then, e.g., take a MONO out from the piano, either mic the Katana or take a line out from that, and put a mic on the kick, and put the H6 on a mic stand and use that as an overhead [pair] on the drums. Yeah, and if you have a singer, one XLR input will be left for that mic. (Take stereo line-out from piano if you have a channel left over!) If you have 2 singers, needing individual mics, you'd definitely need the XLR adapter, and only have a single mic for drum overheads. (FD: I used an H6 for a few years - I was an "early adopter" of one of those. I moved to the Zoom F8/n model for the 8 track capability, which makes small band recording a bit easier.)

 

[bouldersoundguy]

As you can see, there's a range of solutions. I was tempted to push for proper multitrack into a computer, but I decided to keep it fairly simple at this stage. Ramp up the recording technique as the band develops.

 

[jamesperrett]

I've been using my Zoom U-44 feeding a mobile phone in a similar way to the way that I suggested and it works well. The mics sound pretty good and you can actually reduce the sound of loud instruments by pointing it away from the instruments that are too prominent. If the H6 uses the same mic module as the one I use on the U-44 (I think it does) then it also has 2 unbalanced line inputs on a 3.5mm TRS jack if you don't want to use the stereo mic.

 

[Davpmars]

I would record the video and audio separately and then sync them up later (though I would record a rough sound on the camera to make syncing easier later). Use the mics on the H6 to pick up the drums and any other loud sounds in the room. You can then plug an output from the piano into one of the H6 TRS inputs and also possibly take an output from the guitar amp to another H6 input. You can then import the audio and video files into something like Reaper which will allow you to sync them up easily..

I wouldn't try connecting the piano to a guitar amp - it really needs its own amp or you maybe need to think about a general PA setup. If the kids decide they want to add vocals then they may need a PA anyway. I was impressed with the sound and simplicity of the Yamaha StagePAS system when we rehearsed with one.

Very good advice. Thank you.

For syncing the audio afterwards, i use a desktop mac for my editing but so far I’ve only used iMovie. Is Reaper something i can get on a mac or do you recommend another program? Is that easy?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Yes, you could use Reaper for some basic video tasks, but I would strongly recommend DaVinci Resolve for the video side of things. Perhaps do your audio processing in Reaper and export a wave file into Resolve to sync them and then process and edit the video.

I use Vegas Pro for all those functions, but it's Windows only and it costs. Reaper is affordable and Resolve has a very capable free version.

 

[Davpmars]

Honestly, your best bet is to record the audio separately and merge it to the video in post. That's what I do with a Zoom H5 and my four Handycams and two GoPros.

As far as the amp, what you really need is a PA system, even a small one, to let the piano compete with the guitar and drums. The PA could also take some vocals if that is needed.

The way I use my H5 to record a live band is to place it close to stage to capture all the "loud stuff" (drums and amps), then run a cable from the PA (which will have vocals and anything else that didn't make enough volume on its own) to the line input of the H5. I import those files, balance them and export them to a stereo file. Then I import the stereo file to a project in a video editor with the files from the camera, line them up to the camera audio, mute the camera audio and go from there.

Can you tell me more about the PA system? I've been researching different mixers and interfaces but i'm getting a little bogged down in the details. It seems like there are a million different levels of complexity that can get me where I want to go but I think the PA system is the level i'm looking for.

Some people I have talked to tell me I should connect everything to a computer but right now I'm most comfortable with recording on a camera with some mics and other equipment but I'll maybe get into the multi-tracks and computers later on as we scale up.

 

[Davpmars]

Honestly, your best bet is to record the audio separately and merge it to the video in post. That's what I do with a Zoom H5 and my four Handycams and two GoPros.

As far as the amp, what you really need is a PA system, even a small one, to let the piano compete with the guitar and drums. The PA could also take some vocals if that is needed.

The way I use my H5 to record a live band is to place it close to stage to capture all the "loud stuff" (drums and amps), then run a cable from the PA (which will have vocals and anything else that didn't make enough volume on its own) to the line input of the H5. I import those files, balance them and export them to a stereo file. Then I import the stereo file to a project in a video editor with the files from the camera, line them up to the camera audio, mute the camera audio and go from there.

If I am using the mics on the H6 to catch the loud instruments and I use cables to catch the other stuff, including vocals, does the H6 or the editing software have the capability of separating the audio from each sound source? Will it create several different tracks so I can raise and lower the levels? I may not be asking the right question but I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I don't understand how I will be able to raise the sound level of the piano without simultaneously raising the sound level of everything else.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

If I am using the mics on the H6 to catch the loud instruments and I use cables to catch the other stuff, including vocals, does the H6 or the editing software have the capability of separating the audio from each sound source? Will it create several different tracks so I can raise and lower the levels? I may not be asking the right question but I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I don't understand how I will be able to raise the sound level of the piano without simultaneously raising the sound level of everything else.

My H5 records a stereo wave file for the onboard mics and two mono files for the inputs. The H6 should record a single stereo file and four separate mono files. In DAW software, you import the files, line them up side by side on the timeline, apply effects, balance levels, pan things left and right, export the finished stereo file.

At first you could capture the keyboard direct, but at some point you're going to need a PA. Complexity can jump a bit, but we can help with that. Although this is a recording forum, many of us know live sound. Live recording was how I started, so I'm in both worlds pretty equally.

 

[ecc83]

Hi Dav' I don't know whether to be happy for you or sorry! Whatever happens, dad's cards are going to get a bashing!

I would suggest you think about the "PA situation" first of all? Not necessarily because the kids want to get out there gigging but because until you have an 'integrated, balanced band sound' you don't stand a hope in Hades of getting a decent recording IMHO. First off I think you need a small mixer.

I have looked for mixers with 4 XLR mic inputs because going more than 4 jacks the price up mightily. These are:

Yamaha MG10X CV
Behringer 1202SFX
Mackie Mix12 FX

They range from about £125 to £199. There are dozens of similar mixers about but 'under the hood' the electronics is pretty much the same (case of who ripped of who when!) A mixer will allow you to mic up the amp and drums** and take a feed from the keyboard. Many kbds* have 'line outputs' that can deliver a signal to the line jack inputs on a mixer. The resultant mixer could then ne sent to some form of PA but to start with you could get a small headphone amplifier. The Behringer HA400 is about £20 and gives 4 stereo splits with independent volume control (same mix but variable level)

Most folks have some kind of headphones or buds kicking around and they at least would allow the keyboard player to hear WTF they are doing! Once you have a working balance of the sound it is then pretty easy to feed that as a stereo line signal to a recording device.

I would suggest you download the user manuals for a few mixers and study them. Most informative of all is a "Signal Flow Block Diagram" Sadly many mixer firms have stopped publishing these but I sure you will find at least one All you need really because practically all these basic mixers follow the same routing topology.

* Your kbd might not have line outs but will I am sure have a headphone out. If so you will need a 'stereo' aka "TRS" plug to two mono TS cable to feed the stereo line inputs of a mixer.

** Drums need more than one or two mics but to start with, so long as people get a 'beat' and can keep time be ok?

Sadly Yamaha have degraded to the "one, crumpled sheet" form of product info but Mackie are still good.

Dave.

 

[jamesperrett]

For syncing the audio afterwards, i use a desktop mac for my editing but so far I’ve only used iMovie. Is Reaper something i can get on a mac or do you recommend another program? Is that easy?

You can get Reaper for the Mac. It is free to try and the demo doesn't run out - although the price to buy it is very reasonable too. I'm an audio person so I find it much easier to use Reaper for video than Resolve because it treats video in a very similar way to how it treats audio. However, if you have more of a video background you may find that Resolve makes more sense. You will probably find that the video and audio drift apart very slightly if you try to sync more than a few minutes at a time but this can be easily corrected by slightly adjusting the playback speed of either the audio or video.

 

[jamesperrett]

Can you tell me more about the PA system? I've been researching different mixers and interfaces but i'm getting a little bogged down in the details.

That's why I suggested the Yamaha StagePAS. In my experience it sounds reasonably decent and is simple to set up. There are many alternative ways of doing this but it is probably best to start simple for now. You don't need another audio interface if you have the H6 - it will work as an audio interface if you connect it to the computer via USB.

 

[keith.rogers]

For syncing the audio afterwards, i use a desktop mac for my editing but so far I’ve only used iMovie. Is Reaper something i can get on a mac or do you recommend another program? Is that easy?

You can sync visually in iMovie by expanding the timeline (slider below preview window) and lining up your mixed (GarageBand? Reaper?) audio track. Then, just pull the level of the camera audio down to zero. (see attached - pics from open mic iPhone video my wife did, I did a bit of de-noise in RX on the audio.)

 

[Serendipity Records]

Whatever happens, dad's cards are going to get a bashing!

In this (and most family bands'!) case, looking at used gear -- either from 2nd hand vendors (Reverb) or demo/return prices on retailer websites -- is a no-brainer. Make sure you look for these deals as they will save you thousands of $$$ if you keep at it.

 

[Davpmars]

@ecc83 you are right... this is going to hurt the pocketbook but this is a lot of fun for me. I have 4 kids, i require they all play an instrument, I don't care which one, I just tell them they have to play something. The intent was never to create a band, I just want them to have a healthy hobby that will carry into adulthood. This year for Christmas I told them not to buy me anything but that I wanted them to learn to play Wizards in Winter, by Trans-Siberian Orchestra. Even if it was a simplified version. They put it together surprisingly well! and they had a lot of fun doing it. They aren't close to getting any giggs or entering any competitions but they are having fun and I'm loving watching them put it all together.

After doing more research, I think I am going to stay away from the PA system for now, at least until they get older and a little better. Right now, they will only perform for friends and family.

@bouldersoundguy I want to make sure I understand a few things correctly. The Zoom H6 will connect to 4 devices in this manner

Guitar/Bass -> amp -> H6 and in similar fashion... Voice microphone -> speaker -> H6 and lastly... Digital Piano -> H6. In this way, the H6 will grab the whole band with the H6 mics in Stereo but it will also grab mono tracks for all the rest of the instruments wired in to the H6.

How will a mixer play into this set up? Is it that a mixer will allow the live volumes to be regulated so that not one instrument is overpowering? Also with a mixer, could I potentially connect an electric guitar and a bass guitar straight to a mixer and then have one line out to the same amp?

 

[rob aylestone]

try to think about the recording and live setup as separate. The H6 has it's built in stereo mic which is a L+R and then 4 mono channels - at mic/or instrument level - they can then be mixed afterwards if you plan properly. The snag really is that you need to devise a system that allows everyone to hear everyone. So while the piano can go direct to the recorder, you still need to hear it - so you could use mixers and stuff, but the cost and complexity go up.
First thing - I'll assume you have the recording space. what sound sources will you have? I think it is
1.guitar
2.bass - not sure as something said guitar/bass and I got confused.
3 keys
4.voice
5 drums

What will happen is as you say - the guitar and drums spill into everything. Mic placement and distance, and things to put between them as barriers will help.
The snag I suspect, will be making the kit sound right. I've recorded great jazz drums with one mic overhead, but frankly, recording drums is a really hard thing to do. If the music needs a modern drum sound, you probably need individual miking, or at least mic on at least kick, snare and hats - but usually toms and overheads are needed to balance it. Lighter styles with a bit of distance can work, but the key is separation, finding the direction of least pickup from every mic and placing noisy things in that direction. With minimal mics, the room also becomes part of the sound - for good or worse.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

@bouldersoundguy I want to make sure I understand a few things correctly. The Zoom H6 will connect to 4 devices in this manner

Guitar/Bass -> amp -> H6 and in similar fashion... Voice microphone -> speaker -> H6 and lastly... Digital Piano -> H6. In this way, the H6 will grab the whole band with the H6 mics in Stereo but it will also grab mono tracks for all the rest of the instruments wired in to the H6.

How will a mixer play into this set up? Is it that a mixer will allow the live volumes to be regulated so that not one instrument is overpowering? Also with a mixer, could I potentially connect an electric guitar and a bass guitar straight to a mixer and then have one line out to the same amp?

Yes, that's pretty much what I was envisioning for your connections, with the caveat that the amp and speaker may not have ideal outputs for connecting to the H6. That's a solvable problem once we know more about the specific gear.

A mixer would manage multiple inputs and multiple speakers. Everything that isn't loud on its own, like vocals or instruments that don't have their own amps, gets amplified by the PA. The mixer is used to send the right amounts to the main speaker and potentially a different balance to speakers on the stage for the musicians to hear themselves (stage monitors) or earbuds/headphones (IEMs, in ear monitors).

My usual "quick and dirty" live recording setup with the H5 is to connect one (mono) or two (stereo) feeds from the PA mixer to the mic/line inputs of the H5 and use the onboard mic to capture the stuff that is loud enough to not be in the PA or just not be turned up (drums and amps). I don't have all the sources separated out. If the balance in the room is good, I should be able to "reconstitute" it by balancing the mic recording with the PA direct recording. One issue with smaller stages is that the drums can be loud vs. the amps, especially if an amp is angled up (because I keep the recorder low so it's visually distracting). I generally try to place the recorder where it's not getting too much sound from the main speakers or the stage monitors, but it is picking up the drums and amps (see pic).

If I'm going to do more than that. I'll do a full multitrack recording with everything completely recorded to completely separate files. I'll even set up a pair of mics to capture the sound of the room including audience response. That's a whole different thing. What you seem to be heading toward is something in between, which presents its own problems (like everyone hearing everyone as Rob says).