Hi-fi sound for hi-fi keys...

Q

Qasper

New member
Greetings. I got my hands on a Roland RD-700 not long ago with the orchestral piano expansion card - sounds fantastic. In my headphones, that is. Now how do I get that thick hi-fi sound out in the open? Monitors tend to flatten the sound, but I need something that will make the samples sound as rich in my living room as they do in my headphones. I compose on piano, so an above-par sound is not optional. This being said, I just blew out all three sets of tweeters in my stereo system - it was a ten-year old Sony I got for 250$, and the speakers were about the only thing still working on it, so I'm not too chagrined. But it makes me wonder if buying a 2000$ hi-fi system to amplify the piano is a sound decision. I'm worried the first crescendo will kill them, too. Any of you pundits have suggestions?

BTW - I won't be using it for shows, don't need many decibels. Just out-in-the-open sound for acoustic composition sessions at my place. Let's put it this way - I want as much noise as would create a real piano with as much sound quality. I've got the keyboard for it (as far as my ears can tell), now I need the speakers. What do I buy?
 
Hi-fi systems aren't very good for live music. They just can't handle the fast transients and power jumps.

If you are going to be recording and mixing you really need monitors. If you want something that sounds good live than check out some PA speakers. JBL and EV are pretty safe bets. The larger Alesis monitors are also pretty hi-fi sounding with a lot of bass.
 
Qasper,

Hi-fi solo piano reproduction is a tall order. You need wide frequency range, wide dynamics, and pretty high power handling. You're right to be concerned about blowing your speakers. Solo instruments tend to concentrate energy in narrow frequency bands and are notorious for blowing out home speakers.

$2000 you say?

If you can use a screwdriver and do some simple soldering, then I'd suggest building a kit. You’ll get the best sound for your money this way.

You can get a Hafler P3000 amp for about $500 US. This amp will work nicely with most anything. (btw, I'm a firm believer that the speaker is far more important than the amp)

Then for around $1500 US you can get an Aria 7 TLR kit from Zalytron http://www.zalytron.com/ (look under High Efficiency Kits). I recommend this one because it will sound superb and the TLR tweeter will take most anything you throw at it.

If you have extra money and tall ceilings, then consider the Axon Array-3. The sound quality won’t be quite as accurate as the Aria, but the dynamics, impact and bass authority you'll achieve will be astounding. You’ll knock the socks off of your friends with this one.:D These will probably even work in a small club.

barefoot
 
TexRoadkill said:
Hi-fi systems aren't very good for live music. They just can't handle the fast transients and power jumps.
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Yes, and this is even true for playing in your living room. A real piano can put out quite a lot of energy. So, if you want to replicate that, you’ll need more than just the average home speaker – regardless of quality.

If you are going to be recording and mixing you really need monitors. If you want something that sounds good live than check out some PA speakers. JBL and EV are pretty safe bets. The larger Alesis monitors are also pretty hi-fi sounding with a lot of bass.
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But these are a far cry from hi-fi, Tex. I offered a couple true hi-fi alternatives. Of course the price for getting hi-fi quality along with high power handling is - well – the price $$$.

Qasper,
If you’re interested, I might be able to design you something that’s a little better compromise between quality, size, and price than the kits I suggested. I really love these kinds of specialty challenges!

Here’s a link to my (fledgling) web site. http://www.geocities.com/twbarefoot2000/loudspeakers.html The black speaker on the right was an answer to a similar situation as yours.

barefoot
 
Barefoot's right, Tex - I tried out everything in the stores (all of 'em, everywhere) - PA's are good for noise, but not textured sound (unless you go into ProAudio capable of blowing a stadium roof off and frankly, I'd rather buy a car, a house and a decked-out ProTools first). I'm going for more jazz than hard-rock, hence the need for extra colours in the output. This said, thanks for the input.

Barefoot, you confirmed what I suspected. Just so you know, I am about as talented with tools as I am with, well, tools. Not my thing. But your tips are noted as is your offer. If I weren't so paranoid, I'd take you up on it, but from coast to coast, one country to another, no matter how cool your website (and it is sharp) and accurate your information, I must, reluctantly, refrain. I will be looking into the kit solution, however. Never even contemplated it before. But then, another question comes to mind (because I am lazy): Why must we build our own? Aren't there any pick-up-at-the-store systems out there that could handle what the kits can?
 
Qasper said:
...no matter how cool your website (and it is sharp) and accurate your information, I must, reluctantly, refrain. I will be looking into the kit solution, however. Never even contemplated it before. But then, another question comes to mind (because I am lazy): Why must we build our own? Aren't there any pick-up-at-the-store systems out there that could handle what the kits can?
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Thanks for the compliment on my website. It's not a very sophisticated layout, but I did the artwork myself. And I do understand your paranoia about internet acquaintances.

The reason I suggest kits is because 1. They are a significant cost savings over "store bought" systems. 2. In many cases you can't find anything comparable in a store bought system. This is especially true in your case since you're looking for something with special requirements. For example, the only retail speakers I know of that use the TLR tweeter are the Utopia series by JMlab. Very nice speakers, but I believe the Mini Utopia, which is similar to the Aria 7 TLR kit, sells for about $7000 US.

barefoot
 
Ahum. Right. 7Gs, you say. Let me get my wallet. On second thought, no. I just got back from a hi-fi dealership. Problem with these Joes is they know squat about the implications of plugging a keyboard into a sound system. Oie.

Barefoot, looks like I'm going to have to get in touch with zalytron. Your help has been priceless. Looks like no one in Montreal has a clue. 3 million of us, all clueless. Go figure. Time to break out the tools...
 
barefoot said:
(...) for around $1500 US you can get an Aria 7 TLR kit from Zalytron (...)
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I read up on Aria...
http://www.desertsounds.com/page7.html

"the speakers are designed with Phoenix organs in mind" comes up on every site I found which mentions the brand, and seeing as organs are all they trump about, I'm wondering how the plucking of a piano will come across, which leads me to my next question: how do I know this speaker is what I need if I will only get to hear the thing after my cash has been spent and my tools have been used setting it up?

Kind of a leap of faith, wouldn't you say? How did you go about it, 'Foot?
 
That’s a different Aria than the one I’m referring to and I’ve never heard of them.

The Aria 7 is a public domain design and is only sold as a kit. It was originally designed by Joseph D’Appolito who almost single handedly revolutionized the way loudspeakers are made. He developed the ubiquitous M-T-M (Midbass-Tweeter-Midbass) alignment.

The standard Aria 7 is a very neutral, dynamic and smooth sounding speaker and has the slight “forwardness” or presence typical of MTM designs. Upgraded with the TLR it has an even more expanded sense of ease and depth – plus glistening highs above 10kHz and of course the power handling you’re looking for.

As far as hearing it before hand? The Avalon Acoustics Arcus is the only speaker I can think of off the top of my head that uses the same drivers as the standard Aria 7, though it only has one woofer. Then of course there’s the JMlab Mini Utopia with the TLR tweeter. It uses the same brand of woofers, but different models and materials. If you can listen to these they might give you a reasonable guess of the sound. The Aria 7, however, will have more bass extension than either of these.

barefoot
 
Well alright then. You obviously know a woofer from a bark. I'll take your advice, and a pair of Aria 7 speakers, too. Thanks, Barefoot . You've been a great help.

- Q -
 
Sounds like you want hifi equipment. I love it too. It's very, very, very expensive though. If you can spend say... $7000 (that's cheap!) on your amp and the pre, then how ever many of thousands of dollars (skies the limit) on speakers, you can plug most anything into it and it will sound very good. Very,very good. There's equipment available that is "home" but pro at the same time. Most people are'nt very familiar with it cuz they would'nt consider spending 5 or 10 or 50 thousand on an amp or a pair of speakers. But that kind of equipment will handle just about anything and will normally have the accomodating jacks and everything. The only reason I mention all this is that you mentioned wanting as much noise and sound quality as a real piano. And that's exactly what an audiophile wants...

I personally would get some good powered pa monitors. That would be the easiest thing.
 
Qasper,

Yeah, I think the Aria 7 TLR will work very nicely for you. But, be sure to talk it over with Elliot at Zalytron as well – although I get the impression he is not as familiar with sound reinforcement type application. Still, a second opinion is always good.

Keep us updated on your progress.:)

barefoot
 
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