Help please: tuning/set-up question

M

mattdee1

New member
I was hoping some of the experts here might be able to help shed some light on a problem I had last night.

We were playing a live show and suddenly, right in mid-song, my guitar (well, mostly just the low E string) went way out of tune by almost a half step. This happened not once, but twice in a half-hour set which was really embarrassing. It didn't happen after a solo or anything with all kinds of bends, etc... it was just during some rather "spirited" power chording.

The guitar is a MIM Strat pretty much all stock except the pickups. I've played this guitar for over 15 years and *never* had this happen before.

We have played quite a few shows lately and my vocal chords were getting quite fatigued, so for this show I had the band tune down a half step to make it easier on my throat. I considered that with less tension in the strings, maybe that was causing the problem. But really? A measly half step is going to make the tuning that unstable?

So my question is, if I want to continue playing the guitar in Eb tuning, do I need to get it set up for this? What if I went up a string gauge (i.e. from 9's that I use now to 10's)?

Thanks
Matt
 
When you wrap the string around the tuning post be sure and pull the tail of the string back around the post so it gets in a bind as you wind tension on the string. That binding effect will keep the string from slipping around the post.
 
c7sus said:
When you wrap the string around the tuning post be sure and pull the tail of the string back around the post so it gets in a bind as you wind tension on the string. That binding effect will keep the string from slipping around the post.
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That's not what's happening. Those "anti-slippage" winding techniques are a waste of time and effort; if the lightest strings go around the post 3 times or so after going through the hole, they won't slip. On a Strat, the tail end of the string goes down the hole in the peg, anyway. To the OP, my opinion is that the half step downtune with those skinny strings is indeed the problem. When you beat the hell out of the strings, you pull tension through the nut and the strings don't have enough tension to pull it back through.

To check this, tune as normal, do whatever you did to pull it flat, then squeeze the strings up past the nut down onto the headstock. If it comes back in tune (or even goes a little sharp), that's your problem. If you have a whammy bar, doing a dive bomb will do the same thing. If that's what's going on you might try lubricating the nut slots, but going to heavier strings will certainly help.
 
c7sus said:
When you wrap the string around the tuning post be sure and pull the tail of the string back around the post so it gets in a bind as you wind tension on the string. That binding effect will keep the string from slipping around the post.
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No it wont. Strings do not slip on the tuning post.
 
I can slip a 1-1/2" rope around a cathead with 6 turns on it pulling wire at nearly 500 psi so I know most anything is doable. All I have to do is drop tension on the rope and it will spin.

Dig???
 
c7sus said:
I can slip a 1-1/2" rope around a cathead with 6 turns on it pulling wire at nearly 500 psi so I know most anything is doable. All I have to do is drop tension on the rope and it will spin.

Dig???
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Steel strings ain't rope; the coefficient of metal to metal sliding friction is just about the highest there is, and in your example the rope doesn't go through a hole in the post. It's an apples to Chevrolets comparison.

Prove it to yourself like I did. String your guitar the normal way and make a mark on the tag end of a string. Use the whammy bar, drop tune it and bring it back up, all that stuff. Examine your mark periodically to see if it has moved relative to the post.
 
c7sus said:
I can slip a 1-1/2" rope around a cathead with 6 turns on it pulling wire at nearly 500 psi so I know most anything is doable. All I have to do is drop tension on the rope and it will spin.

Dig???
Click to expand...

Strings do not slip on a tuning post.
Dig??
 
Yeah, the string isn't going to slip on the post. Either the string itself is stretching, there are too many wraps around the post when putting the string on, you are not tuning up to pitch, or the tuning key is slipping.
Having used the guitar for years and years my guess is it's time for new keys.
Mexican strats don't have great keys so that is probably your culprit.
But, first try stretching the hell out of the string after tuning it down the half step. If you just tuned it down and didn't stretch the strings real good they will stretch during your set.
That falls under the "not tuning up" catagory.
Any time you make any type of radical tuning adjustment...like detuning all the strings..you have to stetch them all really good before you regain stability.
 
If you've been playing for at least 10 years, then you probably know how to stretch your strings. So maybe your geetar has a problem. Take it to a tech or to multi lol.
 
jimistone said:
Yeah, the string isn't going to slip on the post. Either the string itself is stretching, there are too many wraps around the post when putting the string on, you are not tuning up to pitch, or the tuning key is slipping.
Having used the guitar for years and years my guess is it's time for new keys.
Mexican strats don't have great keys so that is probably your culprit.
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Keys/tuners don't slip, either, not even old cheap ones.
 
muttley600 said:
Strings do not slip on a tuning post.
Dig??
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I don't see how it can be definitively ruled out based in the information from the OP. I've seen guitars strung in all manner of oddball ways and I'm not a tech. If you don't wrap the string back around itself it certainly can slip, that's why the wrapping is recommended in the first place. If it isn't back-wrapped and you only have a turn or two that is not gonna be enough to hold friction by itself. Also, just because the Fender design is for the string to go down the little hole that doesn't necessarily mean everybody strings their guitar that way. The OP made no reference whatsoever to any of these possibilities.

Likewise, it seems counter-intuitive that detuning the string a half step makes it more prone to stretching when played hard. I agree that a higher-guage string selection will likely hold it's tune better with everything else being setup properly.

I can't believe nobody has offered up the WD-40/talcum powder solution yet.
 
c7sus said:
If you don't wrap the string back around itself it certainly can slip, that's why the wrapping is recommended in the first place.
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If you've got the strings through the holes (or down inside the posts in the case of a Strat) and three or more wraps around the post for the lightest ones, they won't slip. I don't do any backwrapping or knot tying at the post; it's just not necessary and some of those methods make removing an old string a real pain. What the OP has going on sounds like simple tension retention in the nut to me.
 
I think the problem is just a simple phonetically grouped twenty square digit key, transposed from booster verdonic form, with multiple nulls.
 
c7sus said:
I don't see how it can be definitively ruled out based in the information from the OP. ..................
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It can be ruled out for certain because strings do not slip on the tuning post. Two turns is all you need. just about every time I have seen this problem over the years it has been down to either a badly cut nut or less often some other problem with the saddle or tail-piece. Strings do not slip on the tuning post, tuners do not unwind, even really cheap ones. When they fail they fail and you won't get the string to pitch whatever you do with it.
 
Thanks for the help guys. I'll look into everything that's been mentioned here.

I don't think it's an issue of the strings not being adequately stretched. I had the guitar tuned down the half-step for a few full rehearsals before the show. The tuning seemed stable enough at the last rehearsal, which was one of the reasons I was so surprised everything went to shit at the gig.
 
muttley600 said:
It can be ruled out for certain because strings do not slip on the tuning post. Two turns is all you need. just about every time I have seen this problem over the years it has been down to either a badly cut nut or less often some other problem with the saddle or tail-piece. Strings do not slip on the tuning post, tuners do not unwind, even really cheap ones. When they fail they fail and you won't get the string to pitch whatever you do with it.
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Do you think there is something in particular I should be checking on the bridge end?
 
mattdee1 said:
Do you think there is something in particular I should be checking on the bridge end?
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Did you check to see if you can bring it back in tune by squeezing the strings down onto the headstock? If that works, it's happening at the nut.
 
muttley600 said:
Strings do not slip on a tuning post.
Dig??
Click to expand...
That's really not true. I've had it happen to me. If you don't wrap it around enough, or wrap it back around like suggested, the smaller strings can pull out of the hole. They may not slip OFF the peg, but don't tell me they don't ever slip because I can verify from experience that they can. However, it didn't slip until I was tuning the guitar, and maybe if I was doing a lot of bending.

On the other hand, the low E is pretty much never going to slip, so it's a good idea to look at something else for that.
 
thebigcheese said:
That's really not true. I've had it happen to me. If you don't wrap it around enough, or wrap it back around like suggested, the smaller strings can pull out of the hole. They may not slip OFF the peg, but don't tell me they don't ever slip because I can verify from experience that they can. However, it didn't slip until I was tuning the guitar, and maybe if I was doing a lot of bending.

On the other hand, the low E is pretty much never going to slip, so it's a good idea to look at something else for that.
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Nope,

two turns on the post and it will not slip. Period. It will not lose tuning as a result of slipping on the post. Period.

You can not verify from experience something that just doesn't happen. If you want a nomination for this years VP award I can nominate you no problem.
 
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