Help: Mic Decisions and My Trip to Guitar Center

[DJL]

DJL, First of all thank you for the reply.

No offense but are they really “low-end”? For a home/hobby recordist, I would think that a mic purchase of any amount over, say, $500 to be a significant investment. Especially with all the Chinese-made mics that are now available at such a low price. The “studio standard” term was also in my mind when I was auditioning the C 414. It may have added additional weight to my judgment as did the Neumann name. Thanks for the advice on renting the mics. I will look tomorrow for places that rent mics and see how cost effective it will be to further investigate these mics.

Your welcome... and no offense taken. Yeah, I guess it depends on how you look at it... I think of mics costing under a $1000 as low-end priced mics, and the cheap Chinese made mics as budget mics... but maybe that's just me (no big deal). If you haven't already, check with your local sound companies, music stores, and recording studios for rental mics... those are pretty common mics so they shouldn't be hard to find. Oh, and out of curiousity, I'd like to know which mic you end up buying. Cheers, Don.

 

[Middleman]

Just for future reference, the DMP3 is the last preamp I would use for a mic shootout. In fact, unless you are plugged into some fairly nice iron you will not even hear the subtle nuances between some mics. I know because I did the same thing. However, I had some top end preamps at my disposal at the same time and quickly discovered that the DMP3 is not precise enough to use for mic comparisons.

 

[dr.colossus]

Just for future reference, the DMP3 is the last preamp I would use for a mic shootout. In fact, unless you are plugged into some fairly nice iron you will not even hear the subtle nuances between some mics. I know because I did the same thing. However, I had some top end preamps at my disposal at the same time and quickly discovered that the DMP3 is not precise enough to use for mic comparisons.

I think it is worthwhile testing the mics through the pre you will be using them through. kinda like when a guitarist is looking at buying an amp, they'll take their guitar to test the amps... it would be kinda pointless if they tested an amp with a les paul custom in the shop and all they'd be using it for is their squire tele. of course testing different (high end) pres would be useful in helping understand the mics capabilities, but i think it is important to test the mic through the pre your going to use

 

[OneRoomStudios]

Just for future reference, the DMP3 is the last preamp I would use for a mic shootout. In fact, unless you are plugged into some fairly nice iron you will not even hear the subtle nuances between some mics. I know because I did the same thing. However, I had some top end preamps at my disposal at the same time and quickly discovered that the DMP3 is not precise enough to use for mic comparisons.

So then what would your suggestion be for someone who has no access to said iron. I would imagine that the majority of the people buying mics on this board (and I know there are exceptions) will only be able to adution them at a sam ash or guitar center or the like. These places for the most part don't carry hi-end preamps, in fact I seem to remember the best preamp that sam ash had when I went to check some out was the presonus octopre....not exactly nice iron. I definitely understand what you mean - budget preamps don't really let the mics "breath" or give a full sense of the subtlies between mics, but unfortunately for most, there aren't many choices. In other words, the DMP3 is not the best choice on an absolute scale, but in terms of the selection that the average chain audio store has, it's probably one of the better choices.


On another note, why is it that these stores have no problem carrying $1000+ mics, but shy away from carrying a decent preamp selection?

 

[pdlstl]

1. Usually, mics are non-returnable due to health issues. Would you want a mic that you have no idea who's been slobbering into?

2. Never pay GC advertised price. Tell 'em you want the down and dirty price. The department manager is the only one who can give you this. In this case, the Pro-Audio manager.

Believe me, they've got room to move on a lot of their gear.

 

[Flatpicker]

So then what would your suggestion be for someone who has no access to said iron...

Middleman's correct about the DMP3 not being the best pre for mic comparisions, but if that's all you have, then it's all you have. To echo dr.colossus, test them on the pre you are using them with, because that is what they're going to sound like.

OTOH, if I were you and was going to spend $800, my (unsolicited) advice would be to sell the DMP3 (~$150), add that to the $800, and get FMR RNP or a Grace 101 and an AT4050. (Buy the pre cheaper and used if you can, but not the mic unless you happen to know for sure it's been taken care of.) Then you'll have a mic and pre combo worth keeping that actually sounds good on a lot of things. Of course that's just MHO.

 

[JohnnyMan]

Your welcome... and no offense taken. Yeah, I guess it depends on how you look at it... I think of mics costing under a $1000 as low-end priced mics, and the cheap Chinese made mics as budget mics... but maybe that's just me (no big deal). If you haven't already, check with your local sound companies, music stores, and recording studios for rental mics... those are pretty common mics so they shouldn't be hard to find. Oh, and out of curiousity, I'd like to know which mic you end up buying. Cheers, Don.

Don,
Thanks for the suggestion. I may end up doing that i.e. looking for other sources to buy a mic. As soon as I buy the mic I will let everyone here know which mic I bought and I'll try to give a definitive explanation on why I came to that conclusion. As of today I am leaning heavily towards the AKG 414. It was your posts, btw, that influenced my KSM44 investigations. No matter which mic I choose, the KSM44 is a great mic.

John

 

[Middleman]

I'm just saying that using a low end preamp to test mics might come back to bite you when you upgrade your preamps. I did a similar thing and later, when I plugged into a more expensive preamp, the sonic character of the mics changed, dramatically. The mic I had originally slated was not as detailed as another that was just OK in the original test.

And by the way, GC and Sam Ash both have high end preamps i.e. Trident, Vintech, Focusrite.

 

[JohnnyMan]

JohnnyMan,

Yeah, I had pretty much narrowed it down tot he mics you mentioned as well. It actually came down to the KSM44 and the Neumann. I liked the Neumann slightly better on my voice though. What I did do (at the Guitar Center that I was at) was record the 2 mics onto a Korg D1600 that they had there. I plugged in the mics, recorded two tracks of me singing, and then burned the wav files to a cd (that I just happened to have with me...)

I then took the CD home and listened to it on my stuff...in my studio.

It was still close (as far as the comparison was concerned). Listening to them at home was not that much different than listening to them at the store. I mean, it was "different"...but it didn't change my initial impressions.

The "kicker" for me was the price I got from Boynton on the Neumann. You can get KSM44's for around $550 all day long. So, I figured I'd pick one up later. Someday.

I did end up getting a used C414B-ULS on ebay shortly afterwards. They didn't have any of the AKG's at the Guitar Center when I went, so I never got to try one out. I bought it strictly on recommendation and reputation.

And, honestly, as much as I like my Neumann...I think my C414 is more flexible...

Boy...that's probably doesn't help you much, huh???

justharold, the C4141B-ULS is supposedly different than the newer C414B-XLS that I tested. I think the B-XLS has a more features such as a L.E.D. on the pattern selector and maybe more bass roll-off choices. I am searching eBay for C414s and there seems to be more B-ULSs for sale lately. It’s still, I’m sure, a great mic so I would not have difficulties bidding on one. Did you say you paid $800 for your Neumann?

John

 

[JohnnyMan]

Just for future reference, the DMP3 is the last preamp I would use for a mic shootout. In fact, unless you are plugged into some fairly nice iron you will not even hear the subtle nuances between some mics. I know because I did the same thing. However, I had some top end preamps at my disposal at the same time and quickly discovered that the DMP3 is not precise enough to use for mic comparisons.

Middleman,
Unfortunately I just “upgraded” to the DMP3 from my two other mic pres (Behringer Ultragain Pro 2200 and ART Tube MP) so this is now my main mic pre. That’s why I used this particular pre to do my tests. I would think that if I borrowed a higher-end pre to test mics and decided the Neumann was my best choice only to not hear the same thing with my DMP3 as I did with the “borrowed” pre when I got home, I would expect to be somewhat disillusioned with my purchase.
Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[justharold]

Did you say you paid $800 for your Neumann?

Actually...I paid $750. shhh...

 

[Middleman]

Middleman,
Unfortunately I just “upgraded” to the DMP3 from my two other mic pres (Behringer Ultragain Pro 2200 and ART Tube MP) so this is now my main mic pre. That’s why I used this particular pre to do my tests. I would think that if I borrowed a higher-end pre to test mics and decided the Neumann was my best choice only to not hear the same thing with my DMP3 as I did with the “borrowed” pre when I got home, I would expect to be somewhat disillusioned with my purchase.
Wouldn’t you agree?

Well, with a Neumann TLM103 I would agree.

That said, I have the DMP3 and use it all the time along with more expensive preamps. My premise is, that it does not do a good job of distinguishing the differences in mics. In fact, there is a midrange EQ bump with the DMP3. I think a better test is to average out your results with the DMP3 and some other preamps. Then you will get a better idea of what type of mic would be best. You might find that even though one mic may not be stellar on the DMP3, it has acceptable results that you can live with and a hidden better sound when you upgrade the pre. I think you need to try a couple of different preamps and not rely on the DMP3 alone.

 

[DJL]

1. Usually, mics are non-returnable due to health issues.

If that was true, we would have public pay phones, and stores wouldn't have demo's, nor would sound companies rent mics, etc, and the list goes on and on.

 

[JohnnyMan]

If that was true, we would have public pay phones, and stores wouldn't have demo's, nor would sound companies rent mics, etc, and the list goes on and on.

I said almost the same thing to the sales clerk at GC. How come there is a "health issue" with brand new mics but not with rental mics? His reply was "It's our national policy."

 

[pdlstl]

Well Don, once again you're wrong. Of course since you're on my ignore list, I wouldn't have had to see it if your reply hadn't been quoted.

But it IS a health issue whether you want to believe it or not.

Just more of your mis-information.

Maybe you use payphones but I don't. And that's a terrible example BTW...

You are the weakist link. Goodbye...

 

[DJL]

Well Don, once again you're wrong. Of course since you're on my ignore list, I wouldn't have had to see it if your reply hadn't been quoted.

But it IS a health issue whether you want to believe it or not.

Just more of your mis-information.

Maybe you use payphones but I don't. And that's a terrible example BTW...

You are the weakist link. Goodbye...

pdlstl... excuse me, but would you be so kind as to point me to this supposed state or federal law prohibiting the return of a mic due to health issues? Thanks

I said almost the same thing to the sales clerk at GC. How come there is a "health issue" with brand new mics but not with rental mics? His reply was "It's our national policy."

Yeah, and that I believe... but there is a big difference between a company policy and a state or federal law.

 

[JohnnyMan]

I just spoke with a store (BSW) out in Tacoma, WA and they said they have a 30-day mic return policy. I suppose there are less health issues in Washington than there is in Atlanta.

 

[tdukex]

Well Don, once again you're wrong. Of course since you're on my ignore list, I wouldn't have had to see it if your reply hadn't been quoted.

But it IS a health issue whether you want to believe it or not.

Just more of your mis-information.

Maybe you use payphones but I don't. And that's a terrible example BTW...

You are the weakist link. Goodbye...

Why are you starting shit in a civil thread?

And, BTW, Don is correct. There are no legally justifiable "health issues" related to a "no returning mics" company policy. GC is just trying to deter the crowd that used to buy mics, use them for a couple of weeks on their project, then return the mics. It is a company policy. Period.

 

[tkingen]

If there is a mic that you want from GC but are unsure of, talk with a sales person who knows you well and make them aware of your situation. Explain that you are only doing a quick test to see if it works in your studio, and will return it within a certain amount of hours if it isn't quite right for you. Especially in the case of instrument mics where there is not a "spit" concern.

Terry

 

[pdlstl]

Why are you starting shit in a civil thread?

And, BTW, Don is correct. There are no legally justifiable "health issues" related to a "no returning mics" company policy. GC is just trying to deter the crowd that used to buy mics, use them for a couple of weeks on their project, then return the mics. It is a company policy. Period.

I don't recall addressing anything to you.