Help me appreciate acoutsic guitars

stetto said:
Hmmm, ya know, this thread brought up a curiosity; Considering that many of today's premier "production" brands of acoustics started out as a one-to-a-handfull-at-a-time boutique operation (Gibson, Martin come to mind first), I wonder how many of the present day luthiers have aspirations to one day pump them out ala Taylor...Is it a general ambition or an exception? Some of the makers of highly sought after bench-made boutiques must, at some point, have to deal with the eventuality of a production line...

Eric
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Not at all really. I've been making "by hand" for many years now and have no wish to expand into a generic production shop. There are several reasons for this.

As a business you have to identify your market niche. The market segment for high end guitars is saturated even though it is expanding year on year. I don't want to look to compete in direct terms with those guys. What they do they do well. Very few of us "Western" based makers could even think to compete just in terms of labour.

I am best at building bespoke instruments for the musician that wants something that is just not available. Thats what I like to do best. I have a specialised skill within a specialised market and that is my unique selling point.

By expanding the brand and increasing production to a level where you compete with the bigger names there is an inevitable drop in the "hand made" and bespoke aspect to the business and you lose control of the brand to some degree. This is inevitable with the increased investment that is required to tool up, increase stock levels and perhaps the largest consideration marketing. I wouldn't want to encourage the involvement of a large amount of capital investment that that would involve. When I started out I couldn't get anyone interested in investing. Now I get regular approaches from many people.

I'm happy with the nature of the business as it is. I produce somewhere between 20 and 30 bespoke commissioned instruments each year and the same again, maybe more that are "production designs" that I am tooled up to make. Maybe 5 at a time these I sell through various independent outlets or direct. That way I can stay in control. Plus I "need" to spend a fair bit of time at the bench myself, I love it. The bigger you get the less chance you have to be hands on yourself. I can also stay in control of any employees or trainees I might have at the time.

Its taken a lot of hard work getting to where I am and I have no interest in diluting the business for the sake of increased production. That is someone else's market. I am content to develop the business by further perfecting my designs, skills and methods and providing a better service to my existing and future customer base. There a several examples of makers such as myself that have sold the brand to grow and have ended up not even owning their own brand. Not me!!
 
Some do, but most of the time they end up going belly up. There have been quite a few companies with those sorts of aspirations of that sort, but they have a tendency to try to aim too high too fast. If you look at the big successful companies, they either started in a very different era (i.e., Martin and Gibson) when the old craftsman apprentice system was still in place and viable, or they built up to their current position slowly (i.e., Taylor). The only major company I can think of which succeeded by starting a factory right off was Fender, but they were offering a unique product at a very unique time. There IS PRS and Parker, but again, they are both companies which had long established careers for quite some time before they started their companies. Also, for PRS, it really does help to have someone like Carlos Santana playing your guitars. But even an established career is not enough to guaranty anything. There have been more than a few who have failed in that regard.

The only guy I know of who could probably do it right now is Jim Olson, but he has no interest because he doesn't trust others to do the work up to his level of quality and precision.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Collings and Larrivee come to mind as newer makers whose operations are expanding. Santa Cruz and especially Breedlove have potential if they choose.

Blueridge has probably hit on the next likely business model. They're doing the designs and having instruments built overseas to high standards.

Let's not exclude Ovation and Rainsong. I expect there will be some next revolutionary approach to acoustic instruments that will hit big.
 
Wow

You guys have some deep pockets. I play an Esteban acoustic-electric classical guitar. Despite people's immense reservations about his guitars, it's really a nice guitar. It sounded good out of the box. I don't know if the brand quality is consistent across the board, but it suits me fine. It's more about the playing, all that you really need is a decent tone and a guitar that stays in tune (unlike the horrible guitar I started playing on!).

I used to play it in standard, but I'm finding a modified open A tuning works really for blues guitar (which I'm only just starting to feel my way through). It's strange, playing blues guitar on a classical acoustic electric guitar, but I've always liked strange. It's not as resonant or full as some other classical guitars I've heard, but it's mine. It's the guitar I always come back to after playing others. I think it might be about time for a string change, though.

Ultimately it's not about wood or neck length or action or anything. It's about what feels right. Guitar playing is a very tactile thing. I don't like guitars with poor action, where the strings are too close to the fretboard. It doesn't feel right to me. I also don't like high tension strings, they make me feel nervous while tuning. My Esteban serves me fine.
 
Zarathustra said:
You guys have some deep pockets. I play an Esteban acoustic-electric classical guitar. Despite people's immense reservations about his guitars, it's really a nice guitar. It sounded good out of the box. I don't know if the brand quality is consistent across the board, but it suits me fine. It's more about the playing, all that you really need is a decent tone and a guitar that stays in tune (unlike the horrible guitar I started playing on!).

I used to play it in standard, but I'm finding a modified open A tuning works really for blues guitar (which I'm only just starting to feel my way through). It's strange, playing blues guitar on a classical acoustic electric guitar, but I've always liked strange. It's not as resonant or full as some other classical guitars I've heard, but it's mine. It's the guitar I always come back to after playing others. I think it might be about time for a string change, though.

Ultimately it's not about wood or neck length or action or anything. It's about what feels right. Guitar playing is a very tactile thing. I don't like guitars with poor action, where the strings are too close to the fretboard. It doesn't feel right to me. I also don't like high tension strings, they make me feel nervous while tuning. My Esteban serves me fine.
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You make some good points. But like everthing in life, perspectives often change with time. And as you gain experience and grow as a guitar player, the performance/quality of guitars will most likely become more important to you.

Another factor is affordability. The term "deep pockets" is subjective. Some people think nothing of spending $1,000 on a TV that will be obsolete in five years (at which time they go out and buy another--with little or no salvage value for the old tv), but they balk at spending that much on a guit that will last a life time (and which will retain and perhaps increase in value). Let's see, if you keep a $1,200 guit for 30 years you are paying only $40 per year for the pleasure of playing a fine instrument. People pay more than that per month for their cable TV.

So, even if you only buy that new TV once every 7.5 years, the calculation goes like this:

TV: $1,000 x 4 = $4,000
Cable: $45 x 12 x 30yrs = $16,200
TV Total cost (30 years) = $20,000+

Guitar Total cost (30 years) = $1,200

Who has deep pockets?
 
Well, a 15k dollar guitar is going to sound just as good as my $350 guitar when it's run through my behringer mixer, but while we're on the topic, why do people go for the $1000/channel preamps when you can just get a DMP3 for under $100/channel. Certainly the small difference in quality isn't worth the tenfold increase in price ...
 
sean_mur88 said:
Certainly the small difference in quality isn't worth the tenfold increase in price ...
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First of all, who says it's a small difference, and second of all, to whom is it not worth it? To you? Fine. To ME? Well, if it's my $1,000, I'll be the one to judge if it's worth it.

As for guitars, yes, one of Jim Olson's guitars will sound better through your Behringer mixer. Crap in, crap out. It's the most basic rule of recording.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
The only thing I can tell you all for certain is the original poster doesn't give a flying damn about anything in this thread.....
 
sean_mur88 said:
Well, a 15k dollar guitar is going to sound just as good as my $350 guitar when it's run through my behringer mixer
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Don't know if you're being serious, but if you are that's total crap. :D

sean_mur88 said:
but while we're on the topic, why do people go for the $1000/channel preamps when you can just get a DMP3 for under $100/channel. Certainly the small difference in quality isn't worth the tenfold increase in price ...
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I agree. But everyone has different opinions (and budgets), and some people just need to find stuff to spend money on. ;)
 
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