Help! Issue with backing harmonies...

[Lauren33]

** RESOLVED** - Abbey Road Vinyl plugin on the master track was causing this weird sound -

Hi, I'm new to creating harmony layers and have done so within a subproject which is then within a larger project file. The problem is that when I playback my track within the main project, the main vocal track is interacting weirdly with the subproject sounds. I've tried lowering the volume on the master as well as individual tracks within the subproject but it doesn't seem to make a difference. When I listen to individual harmony layers within the subproject it doesn't sound like they are clipping but then when I playback a few of them together I can now hear some little crackle sounds. Very confused. Some help would be greatly appreciated!...
UPDATE: I've managed to reduce a little bit of clipping in the subproject which I realise was occurring on two layers, but the harmonies still sound quite unfocused when listening to the main project file whereas they don't when listening to them in the subproject. You can hear this if you click the second soundcloud link below...


(some individual subproject tracks for the problematic segment here)

Comparison

Comparison between subproject playback and main project playback

on.soundcloud.com

(comparison between the couple of main project files here)

(I have also posted this in a Reaper forum but haven't heard back from anyone about it)

Some other details:

Request sample rate: 48,000 (on the subproject and the main project file)

Reaper version 6.75

Using an Apple M1 Macbook Pro Ventura 13.4.1

Please let me know if I need to include other details here...

 

[TalismanRich]

It's really hard to tell from such a short section. I THINK I hear the clicks but I can't tell if they are mouth noises or clipping. Do you hear any noises at all on the individual tracks? It only needs to be present on one to show up. If you can post a slightly longer MP3 version we can maybe look for signs of clipping. Use 320K MP3 if you do this.

What are the output levels looking like in Reaper? If your individual tracks are near 0 dB, when you start to add tracks, especially similar ones, they will increase the output. The sum of two tracks will be higher than either separately.

Are all the files being recorded at the same rates and bit depths? Reaper is usually really tolerant of adding in different file types but I guess there can always be an exception.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I can hear a wobble just to the left of half-way through the sample.
The second half of the sample seems to be good.
Is it just the parts interacting?
Are there any effects on the voices, like delay and reverb?
I'm no great expert here, just my thoughts.

 

[DM60]

Your sample didn't give much to work with, but if I would suggest anything, I would EQ the harmonies and cut anything under 400HZ as a start. Work your way around for best results.

I think summing issues are a big problem for every recording and it is pretty easy to correct. Any track that doesn't need the frequencies as a general rule should be removed. Even though you might not hear them, they are there and causes a lot of issues. When you do EQ it out, sweep it and make sure you are not cutting off something you need. But reducing those unneeded lower ends can help your mix a lot.

 

[Lauren33]

It's really hard to tell from such a short section. I THINK I hear the clicks but I can't tell if they are mouth noises or clipping. Do you hear any noises at all on the individual tracks? It only needs to be present on one to show up. If you can post a slightly longer MP3 version we can maybe look for signs of clipping. Use 320K MP3 if you do this.

What are the output levels looking like in Reaper? If your individual tracks are near 0 dB, when you start to add tracks, especially similar ones, they will increase the output. The sum of two tracks will be higher than either separately.

Are all the files being recorded at the same rates and bit depths? Reaper is usually really tolerant of adding in different file types but I guess there can always be an exception.

Hi
Thanks for your reply. I've managed to eliminate a bit of clipping in the subproject which was occurring on two tracks but there's still a lot of distortion inside the main project file which can be heard in this link (wasn't sure how to upload an mp3 to this thread)

 

[Lauren33]

Your sample didn't give much to work with, but if I would suggest anything, I would EQ the harmonies and cut anything under 400HZ as a start. Work your way around for best results.

I think summing issues are a big problem for every recording and it is pretty easy to correct. Any track that doesn't need the frequencies as a general rule should be removed. Even though you might not hear them, they are there and causes a lot of issues. When you do EQ it out, sweep it and make sure you are not cutting off something you need. But reducing those unneeded lower ends can help your mix a lot.

Hi Thanks for your suggestion. I've got a high pass filter on the vocal buss cutting 200HZ and below but I can try shifting it up to 400 and see if it helps.

 

[DM60]

Hi
Thanks for your reply. I've managed to eliminate a bit of clipping in the subproject which was occurring on two tracks but there's still a lot of distortion inside the main project file which can be heard in this link (wasn't sure how to upload an mp3 to this thread)

Link isn't working.

 

[rob aylestone]

I suspect you've created sort of 'sub-harmonies' where the software has mistakenly identified the differences between two tones. I'm guessing the harmonies are all created from the one track? It's a sort of phantom low note. If your creating system gives you multiple harmony tracks, that all sound clean, but only produce this artefact when they are combined, can you shift them all a little bit in time and pan position? This might be enough to stop the artefact being created?

 

[Lauren33]

Link isn't working.

Not sure what happened there. This one should work - https://on.soundcloud.com/XhGxp

Thanks

 

[Lauren33]

I can hear a wobble just to the left of half-way through the sample.
The second half of the sample seems to be good.
Is it just the parts interacting?
Are there any effects on the voices, like delay and reverb?
I'm no great expert here, just my thoughts.

Hi,
Thanks.
There are no effects on the sub-project track. This is how a sub-project shows up in Reaper. I might try rendering out the sub-project and dragging that in to compare perhaps.

 

[Lauren33]

I suspect you've created sort of 'sub-harmonies' where the software has mistakenly identified the differences between two tones. I'm guessing the harmonies are all created from the one track? It's a sort of phantom low note. If your creating system gives you multiple harmony tracks, that all sound clean, but only produce this artefact when they are combined, can you shift them all a little bit in time and pan position? This might be enough to stop the artefact being created?

Hi Rob,
Thanks for your message. The harmonies are in the subproject and here is how a subproject within Reaper appears (within the main project) -

I'll try what you're suggesting and see if it helps, hopefully... I'll also try rendering out the sub-project and dragging it into the main project. Maybe it won't create that extra lower distorted tone sound then. Not sure yet.

 

[DM60]

If you are using Delay in Reaper, you might check that. I was just playing with it yesterday and found a cool sound effect that created a strange sound. But I was trying for that, but is sounded something like you are hearing. If you are using delay anywhere on your chain, try adjusting your settings just slightly.

 

[keith.rogers]

"Crackling" can simply be a resource limitation if you only hear it when playing back in the DAW, vs. printing/bouncing the mix - I'm not sure if it's just a playback in the DAW problem or a final mix issue you're describing.

Sometimes these problems are as much communication as anything, so apologies if you've explained/answered some of my questions and it didn't register...

What is the loudness/RMS of the main (minus sub) and sub project going into the main/stereo bus, e.g., if you solo the sub-project (I'm guessing this is like a folder in Logic?) or mute the same? Are you mixing too hot out of the sub-project and pushing other levels? The bits of wave-form I see in those screenshots (sub-project is the "yellow" stereo track?) looks like the track is recorded very low? Do you know the RMS and peaks of the raw tracks you're working with?

You do have a lot of effects on that one track ("post-RX ..."), and if they're all like that, it can create a load on the system. At the least, if you're done tweaking, freeze some tracks to create some headroom, in case that's a problem. Again, I'm unsure of your workflow. Myself, if I'm trying to make something out of a problematic take, I generally use RX offline and do just about everything I can in that, like de-essing "surgically" because just flipping on that kind of plugin, and then adding a couple compressors on top of it, well, it makes me nervous . When I've really got the RX track where I want it, I'll make sure it's normalized to a level that saves futzing with that in the DAW.

 

[Lauren33]

It's really hard to tell from such a short section. I THINK I hear the clicks but I can't tell if they are mouth noises or clipping. Do you hear any noises at all on the individual tracks? It only needs to be present on one to show up. If you can post a slightly longer MP3 version we can maybe look for signs of clipping. Use 320K MP3 if you do this.

What are the output levels looking like in Reaper? If your individual tracks are near 0 dB, when you start to add tracks, especially similar ones, they will increase the output. The sum of two tracks will be higher than either separately.

Are all the files being recorded at the same rates and bit depths? Reaper is usually really tolerant of adding in different file types but I guess there can always be an exception.

We've sorted out the issue thankfully. Thanks for your suggestions. The Abbey Road Vinyl plugin on the master track was overloaded and I hadn't realised.

 

[Lauren33]

If you are using Delay in Reaper, you might check that. I was just playing with it yesterday and found a cool sound effect that created a strange sound. But I was trying for that, but is sounded something like you are hearing. If you are using delay anywhere on your chain, try adjusting your settings just slightly.

We've sorted out the issue thankfully. Thanks for your suggestions. The Abbey Road Vinyl plugin on the master track was overloaded and I hadn't realised.

 

[Lauren33]

"Crackling" can simply be a resource limitation if you only hear it when playing back in the DAW, vs. printing/bouncing the mix - I'm not sure if it's just a playback in the DAW problem or a final mix issue you're describing.

Sometimes these problems are as much communication as anything, so apologies if you've explained/answered some of my questions and it didn't register...

What is the loudness/RMS of the main (minus sub) and sub project going into the main/stereo bus, e.g., if you solo the sub-project (I'm guessing this is like a folder in Logic?) or mute the same? Are you mixing too hot out of the sub-project and pushing other levels? The bits of wave-form I see in those screenshots (sub-project is the "yellow" stereo track?) looks like the track is recorded very low? Do you know the RMS and peaks of the raw tracks you're working with?

You do have a lot of effects on that one track ("post-RX ..."), and if they're all like that, it can create a load on the system. At the least, if you're done tweaking, freeze some tracks to create some headroom, in case that's a problem. Again, I'm unsure of your workflow. Myself, if I'm trying to make something out of a problematic take, I generally use RX offline and do just about everything I can in that, like de-essing "surgically" because just flipping on that kind of plugin, and then adding a couple compressors on top of it, well, it makes me nervous . When I've really got the RX track where I want it, I'll make sure it's normalized to a level that saves futzing with that in the DAW.

Thanks very much for your suggestions. Turns out that the Abbey Road Vinyl plugin on the master track was overloaded and I hadn't realised. All sorted, thankfully!

 

[TalismanRich]

Interesting.... I've never used any of the Abbey Road plug-ins, and for sure wouldn't be using a vinyl plug in. I've got hundreds of records, and when digital came out, it was a godsend. No more worrying about things getting scratched, or picking up stray clicks and pops.

I've still got my albums, and the manual turndtable with a nice Ortofon cartridge, but I don't use it for listening to music much. Mostly, if I fire it up, it's to transfer something that's not available to digital.