Help a rocker out?

Oancient1

New member
The things we do for our kids!!!:confused:

OK ... so despite my best efforts to direct my son toward more traditional rock styles that I play, he does have some interest in rap, or at least beats that sound to me like rap beats, with some "semi-singing" going on in between the rapping. He plays drums, but at the moment he fancies himself a poet and/or songwriter has been listening to the stuff I mentioned, and has written a couple poems that on paper look a little "rappy" to me:o.

Question - How is it done? I have a digital recorder, guitar and pedals, mics, a yamaha home keyboard, and his drums. But no clue about how to work in this genre. Is there freeware or something relatively cheap available to work with for beats and other backing. Is there a website to explain things to a novice? Help an old man out here guys.

TC
 
OK ... so despite my best efforts to direct my son toward more traditional rock styles that I play,

Maybe "your best efforts to direct him" towards the music that YOU like is the reason he likes something else. Do we all suddenly forget what it's like to be a kid as soon as we're able to produce our own humans???
 
Do we all suddenly forget what it's like to be a kid as soon as we're able to produce our own humans???

RAMI,

Precisely the opposite. My comment was tongue in cheek -- but in truth I let him choose his own way and am supportive of anything he does or listens to musically, short of buying him the stuff that they must keep behind the counter. His tastes are varied. He likes my kind of rock - for his birthday we will be seeing AC/DC live at his request. He also likes a wide range of stuff I don't particularly care for - grunge for example -- but can relate to as a guitar playing musician. And lately he has been listening to the stuff I described, to which my input is limited to telling him that the chord patterns are quite simple, and offering to help lay in the backing music if he pens lyrics and does the singing/rapping/whatever on a recording. To me, it seems as if the lyrical message is the important thing in the genre, while the backing is mostly drums and a piano playing a simple progression that does not get in the way. What MIDI engines I have do not have the right kind of beats -- hence my request to the group. So .... can you help or not?
 
Hmmm the keyboard is a nice start for midi purposes. What's your spending limit?

Sounds like you're sticking to outside of the PC from what I can see. If he has a PC then you may want to head him towards that direction...just as another possible option (variety is great).

Give us some more details to help you out.

Fiev.
 
RAMI,

Precisely the opposite. My comment was tongue in cheek -- but in truth I let him choose his own way and am supportive of anything he does or listens to musically, short of buying him the stuff that they must keep behind the counter. His tastes are varied. He likes my kind of rock - for his birthday we will be seeing AC/DC live at his request. He also likes a wide range of stuff I don't particularly care for - grunge for example -- but can relate to as a guitar playing musician. And lately he has been listening to the stuff I described, to which my input is limited to telling him that the chord patterns are quite simple, and offering to help lay in the backing music if he pens lyrics and does the singing/rapping/whatever on a recording. To me, it seems as if the lyrical message is the important thing in the genre, while the backing is mostly drums and a piano playing a simple progression that does not get in the way. What MIDI engines I have do not have the right kind of beats -- hence my request to the group. So .... can you help or not?

Cool. My comment was meant more as a commentary on how we forget that our parents did the same thing to us that we do to our kids without really realizing it. I wasn't attacking you. It's cool that you let him be what he wants to be.:)
 
Hi TC,

I agree with Fiev.. going the way of the pc is probably going to be less expensive, than say going out and buying some wild keyboard workstation. There are a few packages on the market like:

Fruit Loops
Reason 4
Kontakt
Ableton Live


These are inexpensive and have alot of flexibility and would allow him to create all sorts of music...to his liking. Check out the manufacturer websites to get the full details on each of these... Fruit Loops is considered a DAW and would allow for full production of songs.. where as reason and kontakt are outside interfaces that allow you to create music, but you have to rewire into a DAW to be able to lay down vocals....

As far as learning check out this website: www.grooveboxmusic.com these guys have full length videos on each fruit loops, reason, and ableton that teach you how to create music and utilitize all the features of these programs. Also music comes from the heart... so once he has good tools to work with... the music will come...


Demi
 
Hmmm the keyboard is a nice start for midi purposes. What's your spending limit?

Sounds like you're sticking to outside of the PC from what I can see. If he has a PC then you may want to head him towards that direction...just as another possible option (variety is great).

Give us some more details to help you out.

Fiev.

Thanks for the response Fiev.

Hmmm ... guess I forgot to mention the PC. :o I don't use a PC for recording my stuff as the noise it generates gets into my guitar effects chain. But I was definitely thinking of using the PC when it comes to the kind of music discussed here, as from what I think I hear, a lot of the instruments are synthetic. My keyboard is a all purpose home type, meaning it tries to have beats for everybody, but ends up having only one or two for any one particular style. So I figure using something PC based for beats would be the way to go. My keyboard can play MIDI beats, but I have not experience with software synthesizers and the like. For budget, freeware or cheap (say $100 or less) for software to just get started would be preferred -- wanna be sure he remains interested before going bigger.
 
Cool. My comment was meant more as a commentary on how we forget that our parents did the same thing to us that we do to our kids without really realizing it. I wasn't attacking you. It's cool that you let him be what he wants to be.:)

Sorry if I misconstrued your remark a little. I am sure I am a PITA parent to my son in some ways, but not when it comes to music. Having spent some years in the business, I understand that taste in music is a generational thing.
 
Hi TC,

I agree with Fiev.. going the way of the pc is probably going to be less expensive, ...... Also music comes from the heart... so once he has good tools to work with... the music will come...


Demi

Thanks Demi, this is just the kind of info I was looking for. I'll be checking all the sites out.

Tom
 
So your Dad bought you all this stuff and now you want to pass it on to Junior right?

Nah .... I bought it all myself, and I'm thinking of having it buried with me. If I pass it on to him, he'll probably sell it all to get money for downloading ring tones and IPOD movies.
 
Question - How is it done?

Honestly - It's usually done with samples - no actual, original, music is ever recorded in the vast majority of modern rap music. You can buy royalty-free sample banks (like these: http://www.sweetwater.com/c990--Virtual_Instruments_Loops ) and mix/match cut/chop them to your rap-beating heart's content.

As long as you have a computer to work with, a software solution for handling samples/loops (like the ones mentioned before - It may be worth noting that Fruity Loops is hands-down the most commonly used tool for the job...and I don't think I saw Acid mentioned anywhere, but it is also fairly commonly used) will be much cheaper than an equivalent hardware solution (like these http://www.sweetwater.com/c657--AKAI--DJ_Groove_Production There are other brands, but those AKAI MPC things are the most commonly used... they are even endorsed in quite a few rap songs as being the shiznizzle fo shizzle nizzle).

For the minority of 'beat composers' who do actually play and record some original music (it sounds like you are wanting to fit in here), they either use keyboards with nice patches built-in (Triton, Motif etc: See here: http://www.sweetwater.com/c512--Keyboard_Workstations ) or simple midi controllers (like this for example: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Keystation88es/ ) to control synthesizers - which can be either standalone hardware units ( see: http://www.sweetwater.com/c504--Sound_Modules and also: http://www.sweetwater.com/c517--Table_Top_Synths ) , or, probably more commonly used are VSTi-style 'Virtual Instruments' (see: http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/computer-audio/plugins/ and follow any links under the Virtual Instrument section). Of course, there is the occasional 'beat' that has some real audio recorded for it (acoustic guitar on that Nelly song, and Travis Barker's drums on that Soldier Boy song come to mind) but those are few and far between...

It takes considerably more time, skill, talent, and investment to actually make some music for a rap-beat, and most of the audience will not know the difference, or even care 1 teeny tiny little bit if they did know, and one could reasonably assume that's why the vast majority of rapbeats are no more than arrangements of pre-recorded samples.

I think that's really about all there is to know about it - Hope that helps!

Ahh, one more thing - if you can get past the corny intro, and actually watch the whole thing, this guy pretty much shows all these things in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7wZD1ewxB4&feature=related Everything he's doing on that AKAI MPC thingy can be done in software like Fruity Loops or whatever, and the loop disks/sample libraries are more-or-less the digital equivalent of that vinyl sample-record he's recording samples off of. This guy has just been around a bit longer than Fruity Loops and samplebank CDs so he keeps working with the tools he's familiar with.

edit: Of particular interest is the end, which is kinda cut off - he says "In my experience, the best beats, I get together in about ten minutes" - that really says it all right there...straight from the mouth of one of the most successful (and highly paid) professionals in the field. Look at his unbelievable list of credits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Blaze (for those who don't feel like clicking, he's produced for Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, Kanye West, Usher, Mariah Carey, and pretty much every other successful Rap/Hip Hop/R&B artist... ever.)
 
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It really depends on your spending limit I would say. Most people now a days are really turning towards daws and softsynths which work great. If he wants to do something a little more traditional I would say find him an Akai Mpc (doesnt matter which one but I would stay as far fromm the 500 as possible) a turntable a dj mixer and some records. Thats the foundation of the genre itself. The mpc 1000 is a good starter machine and goes for $1000 if thats too spendy for you or too old fashioned Propellerheads Reason is a great softsynth that will get him started for $400. Get him that with a good midi controller and he will be set for a long time.
 
Thanks for the response Fiev.

Hmmm ... guess I forgot to mention the PC. :o I don't use a PC for recording my stuff as the noise it generates gets into my guitar effects chain. But I was definitely thinking of using the PC when it comes to the kind of music discussed here, as from what I think I hear, a lot of the instruments are synthetic. My keyboard is a all purpose home type, meaning it tries to have beats for everybody, but ends up having only one or two for any one particular style. So I figure using something PC based for beats would be the way to go. My keyboard can play MIDI beats, but I have not experience with software synthesizers and the like. For budget, freeware or cheap (say $100 or less) for software to just get started would be preferred -- wanna be sure he remains interested before going bigger.


I know your old school, but even guitar gear has gotten pretty advanced. There are interfaces that you can get that will allow you to directly interface with a DAW and use a ton of effects just from the pc. So you really don't need real effects pedals anymore. It's hard keeping up with all the new tech... really.. it is. There's so much going on now. As stated earlier the suggested packages will allow your son and you... the ability to be able to create all types of music... it's not specific to a genre of music. Fruit Loops is used in rap alot because it is cheap and easy to use... As we all know there are tons of DAWs on the market. You might want to spend sometime at the music store... have them walk you threw some of the popular ones.. so you can see the work flow. When it all comes down to it.. it's all about work flow.


Demi
 
Thanks for the response Fiev.

Hmmm ... guess I forgot to mention the PC. :o I don't use a PC for recording my stuff as the noise it generates gets into my guitar effects chain. But I was definitely thinking of using the PC when it comes to the kind of music discussed here, as from what I think I hear, a lot of the instruments are synthetic. My keyboard is a all purpose home type, meaning it tries to have beats for everybody, but ends up having only one or two for any one particular style. So I figure using something PC based for beats would be the way to go. My keyboard can play MIDI beats, but I have not experience with software synthesizers and the like. For budget, freeware or cheap (say $100 or less) for software to just get started would be preferred -- wanna be sure he remains interested before going bigger.


Here's the thing...if you're already doing music then you should have the mics and stuff needed for recording the vocals. So that part's probably taken care of.

He needs the beats. With a budget of about $100.00, I would say that he should buy FL Studio (formerly Fruityloops). It's a lot cheaper than Reason (which is what I use personally) and will be less out of pocket if he tries this and decides its not for him. I would also invest in a keyboard with midi...yours may or may not have it....if it does, then good, hes fine on that one. If not than you might wanna spend about $150 or so more and get one (might be able to find them for cheaper than that on Ebay or Craigslist). Then send him here and we can help him get started and give him advice on how to move forward.

Fiev.
 
Everything you need for any programs, such as Reason, Fruity Loops, ect. Is on www.youtube.com

That site can teach you a lot on how to use the programs, tips and tricks, and other neat things.
 
Yeah there's stuff all over the net on how to use anything...this stuff included. Just takes a little time and effort.

I just extended a hand out since a lot of here use the stuff on the regular.
 
Thanks all for the advice and information. I spent a while on the FL studio site, and though I was totally clueless about some of the features mentioned, I'm going to download the demo and if I can find my around it a little then go ahead and buy the $100 version. I figure between that, my digital recorder, and my PC and keyboard we should be able to come up with something. The keyboard is supposed to be able to be used as a MIDI controller or as an external MIDI tone generator for stuff sequenced on the PC, so we'll see how that goes. If we can get a handle on the synthetic stuff, who knows, perhaps we can find some room for some old school guitar power chords :o.

Thanks again folks.

TC
 
Reason 4.0

As a student, he can get the full version of Reason 4.0 for $200 from Florida Music Co.

http://www.floridamusicco.com/products~cat~61.htm


The student discount price is $249 at most other sites.


Reason 4.0 is by far, light years ahead of some of those other programs that were mentioned.


Todd

p.s. I feel for ya. I loathe torturous noise (rap, hip-hop) as much as I steer clear away from pain.


p.s.s. My mother weaned me on Big Band Jazz while I was growing up during the 60's & 70's Rock n Roll era. It paid off HUGE dividends. That comment about kids rebelling against parent's music is not true. It has everything to do with the teaching.


p.s.s.s. Reason 4.0 should have a good machine to run on. It has the potential to tap out a moderate machine's resources.
 
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I agree your best bet would be to start with FL studio and if he sticks with it definitely get Reason 4.0 (and a faster computer). It costs a little more but it's worth the money if he is serious. He's a lucky kid to have a dad that encourages him even though you might not understand why he likes the music he does. Make sure to come back and post his tracks when he gets started. I'm sure we would all be interested to hear the results. Good luck.
 
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