Hello! I'm working on the mixes of my band's COVID album and I'm struggling to get the low end right

J

JayArby

New member
Hello, nice to find an active forum for home recording! I'm a forums guy from way back so this is my favorite discussion format.

So I'm working on the mixes for a set of 10 songs that we recorded at my place over the last year, and I'm struggling to get the low end right between my studio monitors, and other playback devices. When I put together a nicely balanced mix, then take it to my van, garage stereo, or commuting headphones, the low end response from the kick and the bass guitar are anemic. I keep the EQ flat on my playback devices when I'm listening to my mixes. So I'll go back, add in more low end response, then listen again and it's overpowering, especially the woofiness of the kick drum.

My set up at home is a Presonus Studio 1824c, into a pair of Presonus Eris 4.5 monitors, which are on stands, isolated from my desk. They're a little further from my sitting position than I'd like (38" from the cones to my ears, 55" apart from one another), but the desk I'm using is large. My room is...unfortunate, but also large (unfinished basement with lots of stuff in it, with brick walls, open joists, but also lots of 4" rockwool panels and heavy carpet and rugs).

The HF and LF controls on the monitors are set to unity. So my question is, would turning the LF response down 3dB or so on the speakers help me get a warmer bass and kick response, without having to use wild EQ settings in my mix? I mix to -12dB so I have plenty of headroom to just add in more bass, but I've been sort of chasing my tail doing it that way.

Thanks in advance!
 
It's probably worth noting that the monitors are rear-ported, and are positioned about 8" from the wall. I know this isn't ideal but we work with the spaces we got, right? :D
 
Hey...welcome!

A couple things. First......you mention that you listen to all your mixes with the EQ flat on all your playback devices. Other than your monitors........which you should likely keep flat....you might want to leave your EQ settings on your devices as you do when you listen to commercial music normally. It may not be accurate.....but at least you're very familiar with how they should sound. Changing the EQ in any way can easily throw you off.

Your monitors are not terrible but they aren't very capable of producing accurate lows below 60hz or so.....no matter your room. That's going to make it very difficult to do your mixing. As you probably know....your room is not helping you either. In cases like yours I ususally ask people what model headphones they are using since a good headphone can help you to get to a proper bottom end....in the absence of monitors that can't......and that also eliminates any room issues too. Not all headphones are accurate too. As with all listening devices....you do need to be very familiar with how they play most other music.

Mick
 
Mickster said:
Hey...welcome!

A couple things. First......you mention that you listen to all your mixes with the EQ flat on all your playback devices. Other than your monitors........which you should likely keep flat....you might want to leave your EQ settings on your devices as you do when you listen to commercial music normally. It may not be accurate.....but at least you're very familiar with how they should sound. Changing the EQ in any way can easily throw you off.

Your monitors are not terrible but they aren't very capable of producing accurate lows below 60hz or so.....no matter your room. That's going to make it very difficult to do your mixing. As you probably know....your room is not helping you either. In cases like yours I ususally ask people what model headphones they are using since a good headphone can help you to get to a proper bottom end....in the absence of monitors that can't......and that also eliminates any room issues too. Not all headphones are accurate too. As with all listening devices....you do need to be very familiar with how they play most other music.

Mick
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mick.

I leave EQ settings on things that have adjustable EQ (such as my van's stereo) flat sort of by default. Things like my commuting headphones don't offer adjustments (they're Presonus noise-cancelling headphones that add low end by default when set to noise-cancelling - they're unlistenable without it on, really tinny) and my garage stereo is a hand-me-down receiver that I keep flat because the speakers are wack.

My studio headphones could use an upgrade, I'm using Audio-Technica ATH-M20x's.

In a situation like mine, would adding a small subwoofer be beneficial? I've held off on that because it feels like I'd be woofin' it up with a sub on the concrete floor of a brick wall bunker lol. I have a full 40 feet between my monitors and the other wall of the basement, but the ceilings are 6'10". I can only hang so many 4x8' rockwool panels; I had to stop at 10.

Thanks again.
 
I wouldn't rush into getting a sub at this point. I'd think more about saving to get some better monitors. As for your room....well.....without some accurate analysis results.......there's no way to know just how much your room is throwing off your sound. It could be a lot or it could be a little.

I'd certainly consider upgrading the ATH-M20x's. They're likely ok for tracking but not much more. Not sure what your budget would be but there are some excellent and affordable headphones out there. Normally for mixing I'd suggest open headphones....but they're not known for great bass playback and that's where you're having trouble right now. Open headphones that get close to excellent bass response can be costly.

For a decent price you might want to look at the AKG K371. I have MANY headphones....cheap and VERY expensive....and the AKG K371's hang with the best fo them and they're closed back. When it comes to headphones......you'll get A LOT of suggestions.

Mick
 
JayArby said:
Thanks, Mick.

I leave EQ settings on things that have adjustable EQ (such as my van's stereo) flat sort of by default. Things like my commuting headphones don't offer adjustments (they're Presonus noise-cancelling headphones that add low end by default when set to noise-cancelling - they're unlistenable without it on, really tinny) and my garage stereo is a hand-me-down receiver that I keep flat because the speakers are wack.

My studio headphones could use an upgrade, I'm using Audio-Technica ATH-M20x's.

In a situation like mine, would adding a small subwoofer be beneficial? I've held off on that because it feels like I'd be woofin' it up with a sub on the concrete floor of a brick wall bunker lol. I have a full 40 feet between my monitors and the other wall of the basement, but the ceilings are 6'10". I can only hang so many 4x8' rockwool panels; I had to stop at 10.

Thanks again.
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Right - so you can't get an accurate read on your low end - a subwoofer might help with the lack of guessing the right mix - I don't think headphones are the way to go but it is a less expensive alternative. BTW regarding your subwoofer - isolate it as best you can - these Yoga Blocks from Amazon are really good for that - in fact you should have them on the monitors as well.
 
Papanate said:
Right - so you can't get an accurate read on your low end - a subwoofer might help with the lack of guessing the right mix - I don't think headphones are the way to go but it is a less expensive alternative. BTW regarding your subwoofer - isolate it as best you can - these Yoga Blocks from Amazon are really good for that - in fact you should have them on the monitors as well.
Click to expand...

Got it. I've isolated the monitors from the desk, on stands, but they're make of wood with carpet on the top - better than on the desk, but likely still vibrating to some degree. I can get into a matchy-matchy Presonus 8" subwoofer for $200, which isn't a bad price and would be plenty of speaker.

I want to upgrade my headphones for the simple reason that open joist unfinished basement = A/C and furnace noise. I have to turn the system completely off when I'm recording and mixing, but it is not warm down here in the winter even with the brand new furnace crankin' (Chicago area). The exposed ducts are all on one side of the room, and covered in sound panels, but they're still pretty loud. I'm looking into bringing my HVAC guy in to isolate the ducts from the plenums, then building a wall around the unit itself and insulating the ducts. It's most assuredly not the ideal recording and mixing situation, but it's comfortable and fine for what we're doing, I just want the stuff I record to sound the best it can.

Thanks for your comments!
 
If you bring in a sub I'd highly advise you to do some sort of analyzing (mic and software) on your listening position. Dial it in as best you can by moving your panels if need be. Keeping within proper distance for your nearfields and setting the sub volume and cutoff frequency accurately should get you close.

Mick
 
If you normally EQ your listening devices, then flatten them when you listen to your stuff, you are not going to get the a good comparison.

If everything is bassy on your studio monitors when you mix, and then low on other devices/environments, then you are getting bass build up. Go look up treating your room, bass traps, some reflection point reductions. You can get some rockwool safe and sound. Cost less than monitors. Try to tame the bass where you are mixing and you will probably get closer, won't be perfect, but you it will be better.

If it is a basement, then you have a lot of sound flying all over the place, you need to try and get the mixing area tamed as best you can. Rockwool won't cost you much and you can build the panels for not much money or skill level.
 
JayArby said:
Hello, nice to find an active forum for home recording! I'm a forums guy from way back so this is my favorite discussion format.

So I'm working on the mixes for a set of 10 songs that we recorded at my place over the last year, and I'm struggling to get the low end right between my studio monitors, and other playback devices. When I put together a nicely balanced mix, then take it to my van, garage stereo, or commuting headphones, the low end response from the kick and the bass guitar are anemic. I keep the EQ flat on my playback devices when I'm listening to my mixes. So I'll go back, add in more low end response, then listen again and it's overpowering, especially the woofiness of the kick drum.

My set up at home is a Presonus Studio 1824c, into a pair of Presonus Eris 4.5 monitors, which are on stands, isolated from my desk. They're a little further from my sitting position than I'd like (38" from the cones to my ears, 55" apart from one another), but the desk I'm using is large. My room is...unfortunate, but also large (unfinished basement with lots of stuff in it, with brick walls, open joists, but also lots of 4" rockwool panels and heavy carpet and rugs).

The HF and LF controls on the monitors are set to unity. So my question is, would turning the LF response down 3dB or so on the speakers help me get a warmer bass and kick response, without having to use wild EQ settings in my mix? I mix to -12dB so I have plenty of headroom to just add in more bass, but I've been sort of chasing my tail doing it that way.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Eris 4.5s have a low end spec of 70-Hz - that's your problem. What you are hearing at your mixing desk are the harmonics of the low notes, not the notes themselves (low E on a bass is about 43Hz). I would not get a sub, just opt for monitors with a better low end.
 
Strangely.......the OP is saying that his mixes are light on bass. The Eris monitors...with their anemic low end response....should...in theory....cause him to produce mixes that are TOO heavy on bass below 70hz. So.....either he's listening to his mixes on cans that are too heavy on bass....or his room is really affecting the response. Sounds like it's the room.

So...if he gets a sub.....can that actually help him? Increasing his bass levels could cause even lighter bass results....no?

Mick
 
Mickster said:
Strangely.......the OP is saying that his mixes are light on bass. The Eris monitors...with their anemic low end response....should...in theory....cause him to produce mixes that are TOO heavy on bass below 70hz. So.....either he's listening to his mixes on cans that are too heavy on bass....or his room is really affecting the response. Sounds like it's the room.

So...if he gets a sub.....can that actually help him? Increasing his bass levels could cause even lighter bass results....no?

Mick
Click to expand...
What’s happening is, I’m mixing what sounds like a nicely balanced mix, but when I listen on other devices, they feel anemic on the low end, and I’m losing the kick drum. It’s more subtle than “the bass response vanishes”, which is why I posited that tweaking the bass detente on the speakers could be a solution.

I have enough rockwool panels down there to insulate a shipping container, but the desk is close to a wall, so the monitors are about 6” away from the wall, but also isolated from the desk.
 
If your room is exaggerating the bass aka build up, you would naturally turn down the bass. Then in a room with less bass build up, it would sound weak. Check to make sure you have good trapping (corner treatment), check that you have the room as as you can make it. I think your room is giving you too much bass build up.
 
DM60 said:
If your room is exaggerating the bass aka build up, you would naturally turn down the bass. Then in a room with less bass build up, it would sound weak. Check to make sure you have good trapping (corner treatment), check that you have the room as as you can make it. I think your room is giving you too much bass build up.
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OK. The nearest corner is about 7 feet from my right monitor, and it has a floor to ceiling rockwool wedge in it. I treated the room to accommodate a full-volume band because we rehearse there. The ceiling above the desk has a 4”, 4x6’ framed rockwool panel over it, suspended 3” and mounted to the open joists, and another 4x6 panel on the wall between the monitors. I should probably treat behind the monitors themselves because they’re rear-ported, and it may make sense to treat the cove joint between the floor and wall under the desk.

It might also be worth mentioning that I’m mixing at a relatively low volume in most cases, since my house is a bungalow and I’m often doing it when my wife is in bed. Loud enough to hear all the parts, but not loud enough to be heard upstairs.

Again, I really appreciate everyone, thanks for the conversation!
 
DM60 said:
If your room is exaggerating the bass aka build up, you would naturally turn down the bass. Then in a room with less bass build up, it would sound weak. Check to make sure you have good trapping (corner treatment), check that you have the room as as you can make it. I think your room is giving you too much bass build up.
Click to expand...
OK. The nearest corner is about 7 feet from my right monitor, and it has a floor to ceiling rockwool wedge in it. I treated the room to accommodate a full-volume band because we rehearse there. The ceiling above the desk has a 4”, 4x6’ framed rockwool panel over it, suspended 3” and mounted to the open joists, and another 4x6 panel on the wall between the monitors. I should probably treat behind the monitors themselves because they’re rear-ported, and it may make sense to treat the cove joint between the floor and wall under the desk.

It might also be worth mentioning that I’m mixing at a relatively low volume in most cases, since my house is a bungalow and I’m often doing it when my wife is in bed. Loud enough to hear all the parts, but not loud enough to be heard upstairs.

Again, I really appreciate everyone, thanks for the conversation!
 
JayArby said:
OK. The nearest corner is about 7 feet from my right monitor, and it has a floor to ceiling rockwool wedge in it. I treated the room to accommodate a full-volume band because we rehearse there. The ceiling above the desk has a 4”, 4x6’ framed rockwool panel over it, suspended 3” and mounted to the open joists, and another 4x6 panel on the wall between the monitors. I should probably treat behind the monitors themselves because they’re rear-ported, and it may make sense to treat the cove joint between the floor and wall under the desk.

It might also be worth mentioning that I’m mixing at a relatively low volume in most cases, since my house is a bungalow and I’m often doing it when my wife is in bed. Loud enough to hear all the parts, but not loud enough to be heard upstairs.

Again, I really appreciate everyone, thanks for the conversation!
Click to expand...
In order to translate from system effectively you need to know where your monitors are lacking which comes down to using reference mix tracks and/or some kind of room correction. IMO the easiest solution is to import wav files of songs that are similar genre into your mixes so that you can compare them tonally.
Also, when you have too little bass the solution is not usually just turning up low frequencies, especially if you are doing any kind of limiting. It is usually better to do small increases in specific areas of the kick or bass track, or add some harmonic content via a sidechain. If all your playback devices don't have subwoofers than the ultra lows probably aren't your problem.
All that said, I find I can get very close with headphones, but there is also a big difference for me when I started using a sub.
 
Gtoboy said:
In order to translate from system effectively you need to know where your monitors are lacking which comes down to using reference mix tracks and/or some kind of room correction. IMO the easiest solution is to import wav files of songs that are similar genre into your mixes so that you can compare them tonally.
Also, when you have too little bass the solution is not usually just turning up low frequencies, especially if you are doing any kind of limiting. It is usually better to do small increases in specific areas of the kick or bass track, or add some harmonic content via a sidechain. If all your playback devices don't have subwoofers than the ultra lows probably aren't your problem.
All that said, I find I can get very close with headphones, but there is also a big difference for me when I started using a sub.
Click to expand...
Right. I originally asked if I should compensate by turning DOWN the bass response on the monitors by 3dB, which would compel my ears to add a little more low end to the overall mix to make it sound “right” when I mix it with a good balance.

My headphones aren’t doing me any favors; they sound quite a bit different than my monitors.
 
Regarding reference tracks, I'd love to be able to get these tracks to sound like the recordings that The New Mastersounds put out there (we're an instrumental prog-jam outfit that's a little heavier than that), because man those albums sound killer, but I'm probably an arsenal of recording techniques away from achieving that kind of warm vibe lol. I still use them as reference points, though. Maybe I should try using some of the funk albums recorded in the 70's, instead...
 
JayArby said:
Regarding reference tracks, I'd love to be able to get these tracks to sound like the recordings that The New Mastersounds put out there (we're an instrumental prog-jam outfit that's a little heavier than that), because man those albums sound killer, but I'm probably an arsenal of recording techniques away from achieving that kind of warm vibe lol. I still use them as reference points, though. Maybe I should try using some of the funk albums recorded in the 70's, instead...
Click to expand...
I think the main point here is to hear what these mixes sound like on your room as a reference. This can help sorting out your room. Bring in your reference mix flat and just listen. Once you have an idea of how the room sounds through your monitors, interface, etc. then you will know how to compensate for the difference or maybe even improve your treatment of your room. I think most of us compensate for a bad room rather than get the room perfect.
 
DM60 said:
I think the main point here is to hear what these mixes sound like on your room as a reference. This can help sorting out your room. Bring in your reference mix flat and just listen. Once you have an idea of how the room sounds through your monitors, interface, etc. then you will know how to compensate for the difference or maybe even improve your treatment of your room. I think most of us compensate for a bad room rather than get the room perfect.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I have been doing some back and forth comparison today using Spotify (don't have the WAV files for what I want to compare it to right now) and I'm pretty close given that my tracks aren't mastered. Made some tweaks and have been A/Bing them with my commuting headphones and I'm almost where I want this particular track to be. Once I have that set, I'll use it to reference the rest of them.

It's interesting how easy it is to go MAD SCIENTIST on tracks with a DAW; I decided this morning to strip down the drum sound and realized that I was doing stuff I didn't need to, especially to the kick drum. I need to develop a better sense of when something is good enough, then stop futzing with it lol. The guitars are a different story; our guitarist is recording his tracks and home and he abuses the spring reverb on his Fender amp like it's an IV drug, while playing really percussively. I'm having to surgically remove the peaks with gain reduction, it's tedious lol. That's probably my next Newbie Thread - "how do I convince my guitarist to turn off the reverb without copping battery charges?" o_O
 
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