Heels up double-bass

SirPsychoSexy

New member
I'm having trouble "getting" the heels up concept, I was wondering if people could help me out here....

Some questions to those how play heels up:

*Where are the balls of your feet on the footboard of the pedal?
*Do you lift your entire leg, or just give your lower leg a "jerk" using the calf muscle?
*What is ideal throne height for heels-up?

Any help is much appreciated!

Thanks, Chris
 
I normally play heel down, but when I got a double bass pedal I found that I instantly had more control on double bass parts if I played heel up (but only on that kind of part). The ball of my foot rests on the top half of the pedal, although it can move around somewhat. As I'm self-taught, I don't know if I'm doing it right, but I pretty much put my whole leg into it. I tire out pretty quick doing this, so I can't keep up a pounding double beat for too long, but it sounds kickin'. I don't know about throne height; I've never messed with mine since I made the switch to double bass.
 
Tough stuff!

Yeah, it's tough to learn, isn't it? I mean, I've downloaded clips of guy like Portnoy and Aldridge doing their thing, but they make it look so easy! They go so fast that I can't even tell what they're really doing.

What kind of kit do you play, Whoopy?
 
Yeah, I need a bunch more practice. Today at work I was listening to Soziedad Alkoholika (a Spanish metal band) and attempting to make my legs do his double bass parts. I can just barely get the easy stuff, and after that I'm lost. It doesn't help that I'm not that good of a drummer no matter what, as I mostly play guitar and have never played drums in a band. Anyway, I play an old Sonor 5-piece kit from the early '60s. It belonged to an Iowa City strip bar during that era, and somehow it wound up in the basement of a house my parents used to rent (this is when I was a baby in 1981). When they moved out, they decided to take it with them. I think that's about the most interesting way to acquire a drumset that I can imagine.

So, how's about you? What do you beat on?
 
I've always played heels-up on both hat and kick, and that made transitioning to double kicks a lot easier.

I run with my throne quite high- I've never understood how players can do it with their thrones way down in the weeds. My throne is high enough that my thighs are just slightly downhill from hips to knees- my knees may be 1/4"-1/2" lower than my hips, and my thighbones are just the slightest bit downhill. I find throne height to be absolutely critical for endurance and comfort, so tune the hell out of that adjustment before you try to go further with heel-up technique. If you're used to having your thighs running *uphill*, it'll take you a lot of doing to change your positions!

Somewhere I read years ago that the thight bone should be exactly horizontal, but that always felt too low for me. One size does _not _ fit all. So adjust until you find the sweet spot.

Once you have the throne height dialed, and you have some practice time in, you can hover your heels about 1/2" above the pedals all night long. You touch down every so often, but you never plant your entire leg weight on the pedal. It's like learning to ride a bicycle really efficiently for racing (which I used to do, back in my misspent youth). On a racing bike, you never let the weight of your leg get pushed up the backstroke. You _lift_ against the toe clip and produce power back there as well (it's called "pedaling in circles, not squares"). You use those muscles to float your feet for heel-up: the ones you'd use to produce power on the recovery stroke on a bike.

Needless to say, the throne seat itself is critical as well: an uncomfortable seat makes this nearly impossible. I learned to do it in the 70s on an old Rogers round, naugahyde throne (the slick naugahyde made for a lot of sliding around!). Then, a few years back, they came out with the bicycle-style seats, and I was *instantly* more comfortable. Try different seats until you find one that you don't have to _think_ about to maintain your position.

Toe position is a function of your pedal design, your preferred spring tension, and the balance of speed versus power you need in your playing. I've always played with a heavy hand, and I've never been a serious contender in the speed department, so my style probably won't work for anybody who wants to be Portnoy (although it is the way Billy Cobham does it). I put my normal toe position about 2" back from the beater end of the pedal, and when I need to do quick double or triple-kicks on a single pedal, I do the second and third strokes with a slight slide forward towards the beater end of the pedal- maybe 1/2" per stroke. For normal work, I don't do any slides- just when I need speed.

On the hat, this lets me do heel splashes easily, and if I'm doing syncopated open/closed work, I can still knock time by dabbing my heel down without affecting the open/closed stuff.

Best exercise for learning the two-heel float thing, endurance and conditioning- paradiddles and double paradiddles. Pretty much anybody can do reasonable right-left-right-left singlestrokes with just a little practice, but getting smooth paraddidles is vastly harder with your feet than with your hands... Cobham used to do pages from Podemski's snare method with his _feet_ (or between any foot and any hand, as well) back years ago, on the seminar circuit. Made me freakin' sick.

Your mileage may vary, though. All this shit works for me, a fat old slob who was never a contender in anybody's book, so you can expect different reults. Watch your favorite technical drummers, check out their seminars, and try things.... I'll almost guarantee that the throne will need to be higher than you think, and that'll probably require a rethinking of the whole kit to help you play with neutral balance and a good, stable, upright posture. Hell, posture may be the most important thing, come to think of it- you can't do this and slouch!

Hope that helps, anyway.
 
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"Hell, posture may be the most important thing, come to think of it-you can't do this and slouch!"

Good points, all around. But Skippy hit a very important one. Good posture helps with a number of things: balance, relaxation, endurance, power, and speed. I too play with my heels up and found that bad posture inhibits my playing to a certain degree. This is why I cannot play with my throne too high. It causes me to slouch, and my balance shifts to all the wrong places. As mentioned above, try what works best for you, since people are built differently. Just keep in mind how good of shape your back will be in about 30 years...

Also, one other thing that I would mention. I found that taking the beater OFF the head after striking will allow for smoother, quicker playing and better recording (no BD "burps"). The analogy I have used for past students is: "How much slower would you be playing a single stroke roll if you mashed your sticks into the head?" Again, this is my experience and simply thow it out as a suggestion to try. Some players sound just fine without taking the beater of the head.

Good Luck,
--Rob
 
bass drum technique is the most overlooked principal in drumming so i'm glad this heel up question came up.....

heel up is the way to go....never use your leg, it's like using your arms while hitting your toms....you'll never be able to play fast or properly...

it's easier to get a good rebound if you play heel up, let the beater come back to you, too many drummer rest their beaters on the bd head and it doesn't let the head resonate and takes longer for their bd "stroke"

like skippy said, keep the heels on the hi hat too, it gives you a tighter crisper sound and more control...don't get lazy

also like skippy said, do the paradiddles and other rudiments with your feet, your goal should be to get them almost as good as your hands....it can be done....with a lot of work

have fun!
ss
 
hmm odd that Slipknot plays heel down?? well my drumemr in my band can roll as fast and faster than say slipknot and some of the fast guys theese days and make it last. he plays heel down. he said its easy'r that way?i play bass so idunno, but all i know s that it works! lol i guess its more of a preference thing right?
 
Yup. There is no "one style" that is best for everybody: everyone's body mechanics are different, and everybody learned to play in different ways. It pays dividends to *try* different things, though- you'll throw out 90% of what you try, but that last 10% will eventually become a welcome addition to your chops.

I know some jazz guys who play heel-down, and rest the beater against the head. For every stroke, it seems to me that they do twice the work: first, they have to release the beater, and then they have to play the stroke. Heel-up the way I do it, the beater rests against the arch of my foot, ready to go- there's no pre-release required. However, having said that: one (excellent!) guy I've recorded rests the beater against the head quite purposefully for resonance control. He actively uses the beater to damp the kick on certain strokes, or leave it open on others, so that he can get more timbres from his teeny little 3-piece kit for soloing- apparently that was a big Gene Krupa jazzbo thing in the days of calf heads. I can see that as the art that it is, but I personally don't want to do it that way... I'm basically a Neanderthal rocker, and subtleties like that just flat elude me.

Another thing that a lot of us really ought to do that Rob mentioned: dive in and take a few lessons. You don't have to sign up for 10 years of weekly lessons! Just a few can help you unlearn bad habits, and learn good ones, before the bad ones become so ingrained that you can't get rid of them. I studied with a very good jazzbo for a year or so back in the day, and it has made all the difference in avoiding injury (tendonitis, for example) given the heavy-handed way I like to play.

Drumming _well_ is a very technical activity, and there are very few people who are true naturals at it. For the rest of us, just a few hours of posture tuning, or work with an instructor simply to help optimize the kit around us, can work _marvels_ in comfort, endurance, and longevity. If you can only play for an hour at a time before your lower back starts killing you, a tuneup with an instructor would probably help a ton: a half-inch throne move up or down may make all the difference.

It's like learning where to put your thumb on the neck of a guitar or bass: sure, you can play just fine grabbing the damned thing like a log, but just the tiniest tuneup of your grip doubles your accuracy and halves the effort required...
 
I've never had any formal drum training whatsover, and I started out playing heel up. It just feels more natural and easier for me. I put the ball of my foot somewhere around the lower half of the pedal plate and my heel rarely touches the floor. I have bad habbits though, like resting the beaters on the head. But then I'm not really a full time drummer.

I don't think Slipknots drummer plays heels down. I remember seeing a shot of his feet on a video while he was doing a double bass part and i think he had his heels up.
 
Slipknot's drummer may use both techniques at different times for different situations. A number of players do.
 
My drums

Hey Whoopy,

I play a 7pce Yamaha Stage Custom Advantage. It was used by Tommy Aldridge at a couple clinics of his when he was going across Canada. I picked it up after his last date, here in Winnipeg.

It's Metallic Violet, with wood hoops (Like Tommy always has). I just ordered 8" and 10" rack toms to go along with the 12" and 13" ones.

16x16" and 18x16" Floor toms, 22x18" Kicks.... it's a really nice kit, and I'm glad I happened upon it.

I'll post some pics when I get the chance. :-)
 
...And Thanks!

And thanks all, for your input.

I have taken some suggestions and tried them out, and some of them are really working for me. Over the weekend, I've noticed vast improvment. I'm still not on Dave Lombardo's level (lol!), but with some practice, I'll get there!

Thanks for all your help!
 
RE: Skippy's posts

Lets a take a moment to give Skippy a round of applause...

Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that.... Your awesome!
 
i've seen slipknot live and he plays heels up. it's like a pivot kinda movement. the kneee only moves so much, but it does move. the ankle bounces on the pedal. it's the same thing as bouncin your feet on the floor. take and put your foot down flat, toe and heel. and just bounce your heel, and don;t let it touch the floor. all the movement will be like a spring loaded pivot action between the hip joint and the ankle joint.
i used to play with my seat really low cuz i'm so short, but i raised it a little, along with my snare so that i didn;t have to reach so far to hit cymbals and far toms and it ended up doing more for my pedal techniqiue than anything else. Mike portnoy plays really reeeely high. his knees are prolly about 4 or 5 inches lower than his hips, i dunno how he does it. but most drummers i've seen keep the knee about an inch or two lower than the hip. it works great for me. and i can finally reach all of my stuff.
practice makes perfect. i havent changed anything about my technique and over the last few months i've managed to almost eliminate the "stick-out-ur-pinky" thing when doing 9 stroke rolls and such. just by practicing more often and harder. i just play and play and most of the little querks come out eventually.
posture is god. i used to play hunched over. i sat up straight, solved so many little problems.
fast, consistent (both feet hitting with the same force) feet??
Vinney Paul (pantera) - heel up
Alex Van-Halen - heel up
Pete Sandoval (Morbid Angel) - heel up
Danny Carey - heel up
Mike Portnoy - heel up
although, remarkably, i think (not certain) that Neil Peart plays heel down.

the only drummer i've ever seen that played heel down was Mortician's drummer and if any of you out there have seen or heard them, they suck ass and so does their drummer(my opinion). as far as feet goes, seeing him live, he misses every few beats, his ankles lock up on him. to listen to his recordings, the kicks are all midi. i suggested that he try playing heel up and he took several swings at me, that sucked. lol.
my techniques, veiws and experiences are forever changing, so next week i might find that heel down is the only way, but i doubt it, lol. to each his own.
and someone mentioned ankle weights, maybe in a different post tho. and someone replied that it's a good way to get hurt. their right!! i severely pulled several muscles in my right leg using ankle wieghts. never again, i DON:T recomend them.
Mike...
 
You are heeled!

Proper bass drum playing requires gross movement of the leg (stomping action), and fine pivoting of the foot at the ankles. Absolutely all leg, heel up with no pivoting, and no leg, heel down are extremes and neither of these methods work very well.

It is nearly impossible to get any punch without using your leg. While it is indeed easy to play softly with heel-down, it isn't at all difficult to play softly using heel up. So why use heel down?

I think the leg becomes a better bass pedal machine the more muscles that are used to perform the task. I feel I have more dynamic control using all the leg muscles to varying degrees for a total coordination of effort.

Optimal economy of leg motion is part of a larger balance of the body on the throne. I keep my throne at a level where my legs are parallel with the ground. This gives me a full range of motion and lots of pedal control. It does require that my legs be in decent shape, but that's a conditioning requirement for playing drums.

Finally, I think a swell exercise for learning proper leg/foot technique is to practice some of the same rudiments with your feet as you do with your hands. Single strokes, double strokes, diddles, paradiddles, accents, etc. The cool thing about this is you can do this any time - at your desk, on the couch, at the kitchen table, in the car, on the pot, etc.
 
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