Headphones vs Monitors for Mastering WTF? Oh Hell no!.......never say never ;)

[TAE]

In the Newb forum a guy asked about NS10's ..but a few folks brought up mixing with headphones and that piqued my interest...... In summary to the OP the NS-10's were considered the benchmark of an accurate reference monitor many years ago and are still a great monitor today. That said, they are not the Holy Grail of all monitors anymore, these days there are many more affordable equal or better options...right?

OK using headphones rather than monitors...

I went down the rabbit hole to take a peek... Many professionals would NEVER use headphones to master, some like them for finding the clicks and ticks and then a handful are saying they only use headphones these days...albeit $10,000 headphones but only headphones. I am NOT even close to a pro and though I have some decent monitors they sit on a shelf unused...I only use my cheap KOSS headphones and the results are obviously not pro...but good enough for the girls I dance with since I don't see any Grammy nominations in my near future.... But the set in stone no you can't do that attitude is always a bit annoying...I did see that I can buy a $1000 set of planar magnetic headphones from Koss ESP950 and then maybe go for the Grammy....

Introducing Glenn Schick and his thoughts on why he uses headphones only now...

BIOGRAPHY​

Glenn Schick is a mastering engineer responsible for 25 years worth of Multi Platinum & Gold, Grammy Winning & Nominated, and Billboard #1 albums.
With clients as diverse as 2 Chainz, The Weeknd, Justin Bieber, Chris Brown, Future, and Jason Isbell, Schick has worked on dozens of Grammy winning and nominated projects, including 2017’s ”Laws Of Gravity” by The Infamous Stringdusters “winner of Best Bluegrass Album” and Widespread Panic’s “Dirty Side Down”, nominated as “Best Engineered Album” in 2010. Glenn’s work with the artist “Future” has put more top 10 albums on Billboard’s 200, than any other artist this decade.
Schick’s three decade-long career has included being a musician, producer, studio
owner, and engineer. With his company “Glenn Schick Mastering,” Schick has established a reputation as one of today’s most respected mastering talents. In 2017 alone, Schick worked on a 15 Gold and 11 Platinum records that were certified by the RIAA, 2 Billboard #1 albums, (Billboard Top 200) and many others in the top 5.

 

[rob aylestone]

God I must be old.

2 Chainz, The Weeknd, Justin Bieber, Chris Brown, Future, and Jason Isbell

Justin Bieber is the only name in the guys career I've heard of. Infamous Stringdusters and Widespread Panic make me wonder about the industry because I have no idea if these credits make the guy wonderful or irrelevant in the great scheme of things. I have no idea of if I should soak up every word he says or write him off as somebody irrelevant to the music industry as I knew it. Clearly - it's me, but I can't just take his opinion as any more valid than the other guys on the forum. That's a thing I've not thought about. I think I need to rethink how trends work?

 

[Pinky]

I do most of my mixing and mastering on headphones, and pass the song through my monitors only for some last adjustment. It helps to use the same headphones for years, as I've become comfortable with what I'm hearing on them and how that translates roughly to other playback situations (earbuds, car stereos, and of course my monitors).

There's actual reasons for doing some of the mixing/mastering on monitors, how a song sounds in the room with distance between the speaker and ear (as well as the relatively flat sound profile on the monitors themselves) can reveal things headphones don't. We also tend to listen to headphones at too high a volume, another tip for those mixing is to keep the volume fairly low, but also play the mix back at different volumes to reveal harshness and other details that might be lost if only previewing at one level.

Mixing and mastering should be a process that involves MANY playbacks on many different pieces of average Joe equipment at different volumes.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

God I must be old.

Justin Bieber is the only name in the guys career I've heard of. Infamous Stringdusters and Widespread Panic make me wonder about the industry because I have no idea if these credits make the guy wonderful or irrelevant in the great scheme of things. I have no idea of if I should soak up every word he says or write him off as somebody irrelevant to the music industry as I knew it. Clearly - it's me, but I can't just take his opinion as any more valid than the other guys on the forum. That's a thing I've not thought about. I think I need to rethink how trends work?

The Weeknd played the Superbowl halftime in 2021.
2 Chainz was relevant for a hot minute about a decade ago.
Chris Brown is about as famous for his violent crimes as he is for his music. (The "legal issues" section of his wikipedia page is as long as any part of his music career description. (He beat up Rihanna))
Widespread Panic was most relevant in the 90s.

It's a pretty impressive CV and kind of surprising you're not more familiar with these bands.

That said, I'm not super interested in watching the 45 minute advertisement for plugins. I'm sure the dude is able to put them to quite good use. And if he's doing his mastering while on the road, it makes sens to use headphones and plugins since he can't treat whatever room he's in and wouldn't want to haul a bunch of outboard gear.

That all said, if you're trying to get a start as an ME, and you don't have a physical studio, I wouldn't hire you. I wouldn't trust that you're any more qualified to do it than I am.

 

[CoolCat]

I read all those history threads on NS10 and why and Clearmountain....its like prehistoric dinosaur age articles.
I like history so going back even further were the Goldstar and Auratones and there was a tool before the dinosaur NS10's. Right?

I have an article from the 2000's Clearmountain was using PC speakers , not NS10's for his "crap speakers the masses will use to hear his mixes".
Plastic PC speakers...were his ns10's....I think he still used the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ monitors but checked stuff on "low end".

So today the low end...would be Earbuds, Cars, and Dr Dre Beat headphones right?
The common mass playback system. Makes sense headphones and bluetooth and spotify librarys played on earbuds is the "new mix".
And they sound really good too. Times change 1950-60's Auratones, 1980's NS10......40 yrs later...<enter headphone brand> and <enter new mixing stars with platonium zeon sales> ......maybe an AI robot will be the next Grammy winner?

 

[grimtraveller]

"I come to destroy MOOZICK !"

 

[Papanate]

OK using headphones rather than monitors...

I went down the rabbit hole to take a peek... Many professionals would NEVER use headphones to master, some like them for finding the clicks and ticks and then a handful are saying they only use headphones these days...albeit $10,000 headphones but only headphones. I am NOT even close to a pro and though I have some decent monitors they sit on a shelf unused...I only use my cheap

I use headphones - use monitors - I have Barefoot MicroMain45 Monitors - and Mackie HR624s - I have Sony MDR-V6 Headphones and for final Mastering I use Shure SRH1840 Professional Open Back Headphones - except for the Sony's my stuff is kind of expensive - I trust my playback completely.

 

[rob aylestone]

A bt of Googling reveals I'm not so detached as it's a pretty US centric list, which makes me feel better. Is Superbowl baseball or the strange football you guys play with little actual feet but lots of carryong the ball? We used to have rounders, which is kind of baseball for girls? And Cricket of course for grown ups.

(this is a joke guy - but on UK TV tonight we have football and the rest of the world team has Usain Bolt (sp?) scoring!

 

[TalismanRich]

Rob, the Superbowl is an annual event to a) empty the pockets of the latest high flying corporations by charging $5-6 million for a 30 second commercial ad b) empty the pockets of football fans who are unlucky enough to secure a ticket, c) empty the streets on a single Sunday night until very late, when drunken fans return home... and fill the pockets of beer companies, pizza delivery shops and chicken wing outlets.

 

[TalismanRich]

Oh yeah, I've heard of two of the artists mentioned. I couldn't name 2 songs by the whole lot of them.

 

[CoolCat]

A bt of Googling reveals I'm not so detached as it's a pretty US centric list, which makes me feel better. Is Superbowl baseball or the strange football you guys play with little actual feet but lots of carryong the ball? We used to have rounders, which is kind of baseball for girls? And Cricket of course for grown ups.

(this is a joke guy - but on UK TV tonight we have football and the rest of the world team has Usain Bolt (sp?) scoring!

no some guys have big feet, quite large actually, some are smaller ...all sizes kind of....not just little feet.

 

[Mickster]

I was born into a world where music was mostly played on single speaker AM radios...then slightly better single speaker FM radios....then a stereo record player that was like luggage that had a drop down turntable and swing out speakers with just terrible frequency response. I wore out my Beatle records on that stereo.

Then car radios got much better....with 8 tracks and cassette decks and better speakers...especially bass response. And then home stereos got wildy better in every audio respect. My first set of headphones was some sort of tiny over ear orange sponged contraption. I didn't care what they sounded like. As I began to record....I mixed on Radio Shack speakers....and then ran to my car with a tape to hear a final mix. Like many of us....I was very used to how music of all kinds should sound in my car. To be honest....none of that worked very well....basically because I was still learning the craft. In the early days for me.....it was garbage in...made worse by garbage speakers. I never stood a chance.

Now...I own about 10 sets of cans...all pretty good and some great. I have 2 sets of monitors...both ok but average. The variable is my room...and that's never been very good. I learned to mix mostly on headphones...using my monitors as a final step.

So...look around these days. Whether we like it or not....headphones....and earbuds....mostly cheap and nowhere near accurate are the preferred listening method for MANY. I do take steps to make my mixes sound good on monitors......but in reality.....headphones are the new "home stereo"....right?

The NS-10s were not very accurate speakers. They worked because if you could get your mix to sound good on them.....the translations would work ok...and the music back then was less bass oriented so mids and highs were slightly more important....which is where the Yamahas shined.

I guess there's a headphone out there that works like an NS-10. Oddly enough.....among my many sets.....the AKG K371 works best for me. Couldn't tell you why though.

2 cents worth of.....well.....
Mick

 

[TAE]

A page from his website....

 

[TalismanRich]

I think that you and I grew up pretty much in the same world.

I was born into a world where music was mostly played on single speaker AM radios...

Yep... had one of those. Don't forget the little earbud speaker!

then slightly better single speaker FM radios....

It was actually a combo AM/FM/Shortwave radio

then a stereo record player that was like luggage that had a drop down turntable and swing out speakers with just terrible frequency response. I wore out my Beatle records on that stereo.

That was my cousin's record player. Dad actually got a Philco stereo that had two speakers, but the second speaker was in the dining room and the main unit was in the living room. So much for stereo imaging, but most all his records were mono anyway.

Then car radios got much better....with 8 tracks and cassette decks and better speakers...especially bass response.

Realistic 8 track with 5 inch speakers in those little plastic enclosures that you mounted on the back deck. Cars then didn't have cutouts for 5x7s yet!

And then home stereos got wildy better in every audio respect. My first set of headphones was some sort of tiny over ear orange sponged contraption. I didn't care what they sounded like.

Sony turntable, TA1055 integrated amp and Marantz 5G speakers, and a cassette deck. AKG K140 headphones. Then the 7140 Dokorder and a Teac AX20 mix down box (4 inputs... left, right or center switch for each channel) to L/R output. It either went to my buddy's Teac 3340 reel deck, or my cassette deck. I didn't have any EQ or anything, just level controls for each channel.

In college I started working at the campus radio station. I learned a lot more about stuff there.

Years later, my buddy built his basement studio with the Tascam 80-8, Teac Model 5 mixer, JBL L100s with a Crown DC300 amp. That was fun.



Today, I've got at least a half dozen choices for mixing today, a couple of home stereos, 3 sets of monitors (8" and 5") and 3 different sets of headphones. I tend to use my JBL 308 monitors, the Vandersteen stereo speakers and the K240s phones for checking tonal balance. If it sounds good on those, it usually works on my car stereo and my MP3 player with Sony earbuds.

 

[Jon Thompson]

Maybe this is blasphemy, but bear with me.

I mix in headphones, BUT I'm well aware that headphones are not stereo. The left can is slapped over my left ear, and the right over the right. This is obviously NOT natural stereo. With speakers, even when you hard pan something to the right or the left, your other ear gets some of the signal. Not so with headphones.

I've tried several methods of introducing this crosstalk, if that's the right word, between cans. The first was to set up a couple of chains in Ableton that feed a tiny amount of the left channel into the right and vice versa. The phasing problems were massive, leading to complicated calculations for very tiny delays to introduce, and for pre-delay on the inevitable tiny amount of reverb I felt compelled to add to emulate the rest of the room. But I could never get it sounding like the sound was truly coming from "in front" of me, or that I was truly in a room. In desperation, I also tried TDR's DeeSpeaker and the demo version of CanOpener by GoodHertz. Maybe it's my ears, but they just seemed to pull the stereo field in a bit.

Finally, I stopped worrying about it. I thought about how people consume music these days. It makes more sense to simply get the best possible headphone mix. Sure, the binaural nature of headphones means a mix sounds different on them from speakers, but remember that most people consume music privately, while walking around with buds screwed into their heads. They hear what you heard (given the limitations of cheap wireless buds).

This still leaves the problem of "real world" playback. But what IS that, exactly? It's not what producers hear when sat at the sweet spot. That is arguably an artificial "idealised" situation that doesn't translate to the real world. It's a reference, but sounding good at 60 degrees doesn't necessarily mean the mix will sound good everywhere. This is why we're constantly told to play the mix in other environments, so why not cut out the monitors and go straight to that stage?

So, I use various plugins and techniques to emulate diverse environments to see how the mix sounds in them. Headphones are perfect for this. They can put you in a busy club, in a car owned by a maniac who thinks monster bass and top ends sound good, through a laptop's speakers, in a living room, and so on. If you ever went to the Hacienda, you'll know what horrible things the space did to the sound! I can cycle through my environments (including the Hacienda) to see how my developing mix sounds, and tweak it accordingly, while popping back to "headphones" mode to see how it will listen to the person on the train.

As I say, this might be blasphemy, so shoot it down if you want. Being wrong is my superpower

 

[rob aylestone]

I totally agree. I had to produce a series of backing tracks that would be used in huge English churches and cathederal like spaces with HUGE reverb, so the last thing I could do was the usual thing of adding reverb. They sounded very strange in the studio, and like an IEM mix in earbuds.

The reality is that your monitoring - when you make decisions - needs to be fit for the purpose. As I record lots of pianos, the wierdest sound is a grand piano with too much separation between left and right playing boogie woogie - with that stab like left hand bass and chords much higher. On any headphones it can make you feel quite odd like sea sickeness. On speakers the same panning is kind of 'normal' - it's something I always watch for now.

 

[grimtraveller]

Maybe this is blasphemy

I hear the Pope's henchmen are approaching your town, currently.

With speakers, even when you hard pan something to the right or the left, your other ear gets some of the signal

I've never actually found that. Are you sure ?
Maybe I've just used duff amps all these years !

I could never get it sounding like the sound was truly coming from "in front" of me, or that I was truly in a room

I like the sensation of being able to hear things in the song coming distinctly from the right or the left, while other things are slightly off to the right or left and some things are directly in front and some things move about from right to left or left to right. One of my fave raves at the moment in a mix is, if possible, to start it in mono, or have a distinctly mono section, so it sounds like the song has a mono mix with slightly wider drums, then as more comes in, suddenly, it goes full-bore stereo. It's probably old hat, but I like it, 21st century notwithstanding.

Maybe it's my ears, but they just seemed to pull the stereo field in a bit

When I moved from a Tascam 488 to an Akai DPS12i {with a stop on the way at a Zoom MRS1266}, I noticed straight away that the stereo field of the 488 and the DPS12i were different. The Akai seemed to have a "better" stereo field. It handled width a lot better, in any event.

Finally, I stopped worrying about it

This was a significant development in my recording and mixing. I just stopped listening to people. Rather, I read with interest what they did and noted that. But I determined to plough my own furrow and try to see if I could achieve something that was accessible but slightly unique. My monitors are crummy, they were made by the shop I bought them in {Studiospares} ¬> but I like them because that's all I've had since 2010 and I've learned to figure out what needs less or more, to translate. I never bother with reference tracks. I don't use plug-ins. I commit early so I have all the effects on the instrument at tracking time. I pretty much do all the things I'm not "supposed to do." I rarely use the same instrumental line-up in two songs so everything is from scratch. I just don't worry about it.

I thought about how people consume music these days. It makes more sense to simply get the best possible headphone mix

I remember back in '92, just before I started recording in earnest, reading an interview with Billy Joel in which he was talking about an album of his, "The Nylon Curtain," and he referred to it as the kind of album he'd want to put headphones on for. I didn't realize the significance of that at the time, because I just thought that an album mix would sound good on headphones, regardless.
I still think that.

Yet, how a song sounds in the headphones has become increasingly important to me. Joel spoke of listening to latter period Beatle albums and loving hearing the different layers and textures; I'm very much the same. I like to have all kinds of info in my mixes and I think headphones really give a better idea of what's going on in them. But it's equally important that they sound good elsewhere so they get played on the computer, the shitty laptop, the ipod, the CD player {a little boom-box type thing}, stereos in different rooms, the car and the TV.

Sure, the binaural nature of headphones means a mix sounds different on them from speakers

But I've always found this, going right back to the 70s as a teenager, when I'd never even heard about mixing. I noticed it, but I didn't really think about it.

This still leaves the problem of "real world" playback. But what IS that, exactly?

Following on from the last point, every piece of music I've ever noticed, sounds slightly different, depending on where it's played. As has been said many times, the golden rule is: Don't suck !
As long as something does not sound awfully horrendous, then be happy. Every so often, someone will make a video on "how do you know when a song is done recording and mixing ?"
Me, I've never had that problem. Finished is better than perfect.

This is why we're constantly told to play the mix in other environments, so why not cut out the monitors and go straight to that stage?

Because there will always be people that do want to listen to your music in the car, their bedroom, their front room, at work while they're on the computer, etc. The mediums exist. The mediums get used, even if big business tries to get it into our heads that many of the old ways are dead.
I once asked a woman in a lift, that was listening to music on her phone, whether she preferred them or speakers. I thought she'd say the earbuds, but she didn't. The buds were great for listening on the move, which one must do much of the time. But not at home. And as popular as earbuds are, look at how those portable speakers have gripped the usage of the young.....

 

[TalismanRich]

Something that seems to rarely be mentioned is that using speakers vs headphones is a bit analogous to using vinyl vs digital. With records, you typically have about 20-30dB channel crosstalk, so even if the original recording was set for the sound to come from one channel, there will be some bleed into the opposite channel. Likewise, when you are listening to speakers, if the sound is coming completely from one side, the ear on the opposite side will hear some of the sound which our brains use for localization.

With digital sources, you essentially have complete channel separation, in the 90+dB range. Likewise headphones completely separate channels so that you will never hear left channel sounds in the right ear. That generally sounds unnatural to me. I rarely mix anything with 100% channel separation unless it is a stereo recording where you have channel bleed built in. For mixing mono tracks like a voice or direct guitars, I will start with a 50 to 75% setting on the pan control in Reaper, which brings some of the sound it an apparent spot between the ear. It seems to make tracks sound more similar between speakers and headphones.

I remember reading someone's complaint about some Beatles albums on CD, where all the voices were on one side and most of the instruments were on the other. He said it sounded really fake, not like "the record". Yet if you listen to the stereo record, you could tell that the track was mixed that way, it was just that the image blended somewhat due to the limited separation of the system.

I'll never use only one or the other.

 

[grimtraveller]

With speakers, even when you hard pan something to the right or the left, your other ear gets some of the signal

To which I replied:

I've never actually found that. Are you sure ?

You're absolutely right. For some reason, I was thinking of headphones as opposed to speakers. There's no way your ears won't pick up all of the signals coming from speakers, no matter where they are panned or where you are in the room, if you have 2 good working ears.
Wake up grim !

headphones completely separate channels so that you will never hear left channel sounds in the right ear. That generally sounds unnatural to me

I'm the opposite. It sounds great that way ~ in my ears. But it rarely sounds that way on speakers. Even so, I can identify a sound coming predominantly from one side.

I rarely mix anything with 100% channel separation

For some reason, in my earlier mixes, when I'd listen to the songs years later, hard panning felt weird. It didn't at the time but it went on to. It almost hurt, or let's say, was really uncomfortable. My head felt lopsided. But somewhere along the line, I think I've learned how to use width fairly well, because I don't get that any more.

I remember reading someone's complaint about some Beatles albums on CD, where all the voices were on one side and most of the instruments were on the other. He said it sounded really fake, not like "the record".

That's interesting because long before I ever heard a Beatle album on CD, I noticed that on some vinyl albums, the voices were on one side and the music on the other. It was particularly notable on "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver." And I didn't care. But around 2019, it began to really irritate me in most cases, so I did this thing within Audacity where I converted the stereo albums to mono. Not all the songs, but many of them. I think those songs that I converted sound wicked. I did the same thing with the Pretty Things' "SF Sorrow." The songs converted to mono {particularly "Baron Saturday"} are vastly superior to the pretty ropey stereo mixes.

 

[TAE]

Grim I remember in the 70's that at least my buds and I felt you were able to listen to the music more closely and hear the details better in Cans. This has been confirmed by pros that only use them to catch the clicks n such that you miss in monitors. Obviously depending on how well of trained ear you have, a real pro can probably get a great mix using either but may prefer one over the other, or use both.

It's just good to remember that many roads lead to Rome.