Having trouble explaining the sound spectrum to the house band

[Roguetitan]

Ok Guys I am the sound engineer for a local church in which we are not very traditonal in the sense of the type of music we play.
our music is rocking guitar driven music and the auditorium is a movie theater which is not the best setup for live sound. the stage area is basically in a hole where it is very crucal for proper mic placement in order to keep from getting terible feed back which is not really the issue. the issue I am having to contend with is getting the bands drummer and bassist to understand why I cannot get their kick and bass to thump you in the chest without drowning the rest of the band out. the bass and kick sound good but I cant seem to satisfy them how they want the audience to feel the percussion from the kick and bass I have tried explaining the dynamics of the room, I have tried explaining that low frequency sound and high frequency sound are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
I am just not doing a good job of explaining why I cannot give them what they want without the music sounding like overdriven subwoofers in a car stereo system which is basicakky the throbbing beat of the low b string and the bass drum while drowning the rest of the music out.

these guys seem to think they should be able to get that thump without it drowning out the rest of the instuments. they tried using an example with processed sound opposed to live sound and for some reason I cannot get them to understand the differences between canned sound that is already been processed and unprocessed live sound.
they are totally disregarding the fact that we have 5 mics alone on the drums not to mention the mics on the guitar amps and the vocal mics.

and I don't think they understand the process of feedback and how or why it occurs and why the problem is even more prevelant in the confined stage space we have to contend with. no matter how I try to explain it to them they just don't seem to get it.

this is the thing they know very little about sound reinforcement but have more influence over the pastor so as far as I know they are telling the pastor that I am the idiot when they are the ones who dont know what they are talking about and this is starting to become an issue that I do not need to have to deal with.

so how do I need to talk to these guys so they can better understand the concept of sound reinforcement?

 

[Dani Pace]

Give them what they want, when the listeners complain maybe they will listen. It might be a good idea to discuss the issue with the music dirrector so someone else knows what you are doing. I'm sure you want everything to sound balanced and as good as possible but sometimes musicians wont let you. For some reason many drummers think more intense means faster and louder and bass players think it has to knock your fillings out to sound good. You might try giving them more of themselves in their monitors so they have to listen clocely to hear anyone else. You can only try to get them to understand what they hear on stage and what is heard by the listeners is not the same. If all else fails, remind them it's "praise and worship music" not "personal glory music."

 

[leddy]

I would think a movie theatre would be an excellent room for live music. Any modern theatre is going to be full of acoustic treatment.

Just like recording, I'd look at the signal chain starting with their instruments and playing ability. What's the bass player's rig like? Do they get the sound they are looking for before it gets to the PA? A good bass drum that is well-tuned should sound great without a mic.

Is the PA underpowered for the venue? Are you using subs?

I highly doubt the room is working against you. I'd get them to dial in what they want with their amps (if they can), then mic that up at a volume appropriate for the room. Explain that you are there to make it louder, and make adjustments to the sound only as problems arise as a result with the sound's interaction with the venue. Period.

And do explain to the people who hire you that you feel squeezed between the band's wishes and your own judgment. Ask for clarification on what it should sound like and how loud it should be. Conversations like that are vital to keeping the gig.

Keep a DB meter at the console and keep it at the agreed volume. Remove subjectivity from the equation.

 

[second skin]

do you have compressors and eqs and such? i kow you will have the channel eqs but a lot of church systems that i've seen that are not mega churches are way under prepared for micing drumsets. no compressors or gates in the channel inserts and often there has been no graphic across the mains or the monitors. feedback problems and thin sounding drums all the way around.

i also see no reason why a movie theater can't sound great. i've played some really crappy clubs that sounded great because the PA was tuned to the room and the engineer knew how to make it rock.

thats not meant as a slam on you. i'm just looking for holes in the system that might be stopping you from achieving your goal. it can also come down to the musicians gear. if they are using lame amps and tired drums then all you can do is make it sound like really loud crappy gear.

 

[ggunn]

Ok Guys I am the sound engineer for a local church in which we are not very traditonal in the sense of the type of music we play.
our music is rocking guitar driven music and the auditorium is a movie theater which is not the best setup for live sound. the stage area is basically in a hole where it is very crucal for proper mic placement in order to keep from getting terible feed back which is not really the issue. the issue I am having to contend with is getting the bands drummer and bassist to understand why I cannot get their kick and bass to thump you in the chest without drowning the rest of the band out. the bass and kick sound good but I cant seem to satisfy them how they want the audience to feel the percussion from the kick and bass I have tried explaining the dynamics of the room, I have tried explaining that low frequency sound and high frequency sound are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
I am just not doing a good job of explaining why I cannot give them what they want without the music sounding like overdriven subwoofers in a car stereo system which is basicakky the throbbing beat of the low b string and the bass drum while drowning the rest of the music out.

these guys seem to think they should be able to get that thump without it drowning out the rest of the instuments. they tried using an example with processed sound opposed to live sound and for some reason I cannot get them to understand the differences between canned sound that is already been processed and unprocessed live sound.
they are totally disregarding the fact that we have 5 mics alone on the drums not to mention the mics on the guitar amps and the vocal mics.

and I don't think they understand the process of feedback and how or why it occurs and why the problem is even more prevelant in the confined stage space we have to contend with. no matter how I try to explain it to them they just don't seem to get it.

this is the thing they know very little about sound reinforcement but have more influence over the pastor so as far as I know they are telling the pastor that I am the idiot when they are the ones who dont know what they are talking about and this is starting to become an issue that I do not need to have to deal with.

so how do I need to talk to these guys so they can better understand the concept of sound reinforcement?

A couple of things come to mind. For one, what kind of feedback are you getting? Is it low freq stuff that puts a ceiling on how much low end you can provide to the house? If that's the case, it's frequently mechanical feedback from the stage instead of from the air in the room that is causing your problem, especially if the low freq FOH drivers are sitting on the stage and the stage is hollow. The stage resonates from the PA and that vibrates the mic stands, which in turn impart those vibrations to the mics, closing the loop. The kick drum mic (and bass guitar mic, if there is one), since the low end on these channels is turned way up, are the usual worst culprits; next are the guitar mics. This has happened to me a LOT. If you cushion the undersides of all your mic stands, this will help immensely.

Another common culprit for low end feedback is the kick drum shell, especially if your drummer has a front head on his kick. Vibrations either from hollow stage resonance or room resonance (or both) can make the kick drum shell ring like a bell and set up a feedback loop through the kick mic. Take the front head off, and don't settle for just cutting a hole in it. Throw a pillow in it as well.

No offense intended, but neither you nor the band is completely correct here. Strictly speaking there is no difference between CD sound and live sound in terms of spectral content capability except for the presence of potential feedback loops that can make some frequencies run away. If you break those loops you can get more sound.

Good luck.

 

[Roguetitan]

Give them what they want, when the listeners complain maybe they will listen. It might be a good idea to discuss the issue with the music dirrector so someone else knows what you are doing. I'm sure you want everything to sound balanced and as good as possible but sometimes musicians wont let you. For some reason many drummers think more intense means faster and louder and bass players think it has to knock your fillings out to sound good. You might try giving them more of themselves in their monitors so they have to listen clocely to hear anyone else. You can only try to get them to understand what they hear on stage and what is heard by the listeners is not the same. If all else fails, remind them it's "praise and worship music" not "personal glory music."

Dani I believe you and I are on the same page
I have already given them what they want, the Congregation has already complained and the even made the statement we want everyone to feel it and my response to him was aparently you did not see people with their hands lifted in praises to God during the song service, then I reminded him who we were playing for.

I would think a movie theatre would be an excellent room for live music. Any modern theatre is going to be full of acoustic treatment.

Just like recording, I'd look at the signal chain starting with their instruments and playing ability. What's the bass player's rig like? Do they get the sound they are looking for before it gets to the PA? A good bass drum that is well-tuned should sound great without a mic.

Is the PA underpowered for the venue? Are you using subs?

I highly doubt the room is working against you. I'd get them to dial in what they want with their amps (if they can), then mic that up at a volume appropriate for the room. Explain that you are there to make it louder, and make adjustments to the sound only as problems arise as a result with the sound's interaction with the venue. Period.

And do explain to the people who hire you that you feel squeezed between the band's wishes and your own judgment. Ask for clarification on what it should sound like and how loud it should be. Conversations like that are vital to keeping the gig.

Keep a DB meter at the console and keep it at the agreed volume. Remove subjectivity from the equation.

dude it is excellent acousticallly but not for live performances there is nvirtually no stage and if anything our system is way too much for the venue. we have a complete Peavey Sanctuary series sound reinforcement system which Includes the S32 mixing console, Versaarray speakers for both sides of the theater 2 racks full of power amps and a rack full of power amps for the monitorsso no we are not underpowered.
the mix sounds excellent it and everyone comments on how good everyone sounds it is just these two guys want it like dani said to jar your fillings loose before they will be satisfied and the bottom line is they are not going to get it.

do you have compressors and eqs and such? i kow you will have the channel eqs but a lot of church systems that i've seen that are not mega churches are way under prepared for micing drumsets. no compressors or gates in the channel inserts and often there has been no graphic across the mains or the monitors. feedback problems and thin sounding drums all the way around.

i also see no reason why a movie theater can't sound great. i've played some really crappy clubs that sounded great because the PA was tuned to the room and the engineer knew how to make it rock.

thats not meant as a slam on you. i'm just looking for holes in the system that might be stopping you from achieving your goal. it can also come down to the musicians gear. if they are using lame amps and tired drums then all you can do is make it sound like really loud crappy gear.

A couple of things come to mind. For one, what kind of feedback are you getting? Is it low freq stuff that puts a ceiling on how much low end you can provide to the house? If that's the case, it's frequently mechanical feedback from the stage instead of from the air in the room that is causing your problem, especially if the low freq FOH drivers are sitting on the stage and the stage is hollow. The stage resonates from the PA and that vibrates the mic stands, which in turn impart those vibrations to the mics, closing the loop. The kick drum mic (and bass guitar mic, if there is one), since the low end on these channels is turned way up, are the usual worst culprits; next are the guitar mics. This has happened to me a LOT. If you cushion the undersides of all your mic stands, this will help immensely.

Another common culprit for low end feedback is the kick drum shell, especially if your drummer has a front head on his kick. Vibrations either from hollow stage resonance or room resonance (or both) can make the kick drum shell ring like a bell and set up a feedback loop through the kick mic. Take the front head off, and don't settle for just cutting a hole in it. Throw a pillow in it as well.

No offense intended, but neither you nor the band is completely correct here. Strictly speaking there is no difference between CD sound and live sound in terms of spectral content capability except for the presence of potential feedback loops that can make some frequencies run away. If you break those loops you can get more sound.

Good luck.

we have everything
and I completley understand the sound spectrum
canned sound does not require any additonal processing where live sound does. the presence of potental feedback loops is the part of the picture that thes two guys do not seem to get.


I keep the sound level between 102 and 107 db and everyone complements me on how well everyone sounds, the only two who are complaining is the drummer and bassist.

I am not going to worry about it anymore they will just have to get over it, it is just as simple as that.

 

[Halion]

Why don't you just let the drummer and bassplayer hear what they wanna hear? I'm mean, you are in charge of the FOH and the monitoring, that's 2 different things. Turn the amps down and the monitors up, put them up real close to the drummer and bassplayer as well. Only problem you can run into then is if that's gonna give you too much bleed. Heck, I'd give a drummer nothing but 80hz BAM in his face and a tiny bit of keys or something just so he has a guideline, nothing but that if it's what he wants and needs to play well. Try to make it very clear, in a friendly way, that it is NOT his job to make the FOH work.

I'm a gospel bassplayer myself. I play through an Eden 2x10 cab and a fairly heavy amp. Lately, I've been putting the cab tilted back right in front of me, propped up on a chair or small table if possible. I'd cut a bit of low end because the last thing I want is 80hz everywhere and no tone what so-ever. I give the tech a DI or let him mic it if he wants to (personally I'm fine with just the DI). I can turn up pretty damn loud that way before it becomes a problem and if the house guy doesn't like my signal he can EQ all he wants. I will however NEVER put my amp up like I'm playing a rock gig in a stadium, right behind me blazing the whole band away. The sound from that thing is for me only, perhaps a bit for the guitarplayer beside me as well, that's it. I think getting that clear to everyone is the most important thing, don't let them worry about stuff like acoustics and how the audience will hear it, that's your job, let that be clear.

 

[ggunn]

we have everything
and I completley understand the sound spectrum
canned sound does not require any additonal processing where live sound does. the presence of potental feedback loops is the part of the picture that thes two guys do not seem to get.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about live sound needing more processing than recorded sound. What processing is that? What's that got to do with the "sound spectrum"? In the absence of feedback loops there is no reason why you can't produce the same equalization (which I guess is what you mean by "sound spectrum") live as with recorded music. Processing in and of itself does not produce feedback. If you break the feedback loops of mechanical vibration up the mic stands and resonance of the kick drum shell, you can most definitely push the low end harder. Another thing you can do is to decouple the low end cabs from the stage by putting them up on tables or down on the floor in front of the stage.

You may "completley understand the sound spectrum", but there's not a a one of us who has nothing left to learn.