Harmonica keys

Nightfire

Nightfire

Aspiring Idiot
I know it's not about guitars, but we dont have a harmonica forum and I figured most guys who play harmonicas also play guitars...

I have a harmonica in the key of C which I have been teaching myself how to play. Will this only sound appropiate in the Key of C? It sounds good to me over most notes in the general C scale (specially Am, F, G).

If that is the case, what are the most common keys for harmonicas? I dont have a fortune but would like to get 2 or 3 more harmonicas to cover my needs. If harmonicas are somewhat versatile and not intrinsically bound to their specific key, what are the 3-4 most popular keys that would work on more scales?


Thanks,

Mike
 
I'm no harp player, but every harp player I ever worked with said the harp should be the 4 of the key you are playing in.

So your C harp would be used for songs in the key of G.

Hope that helps.

Big Tom:):)
 
I'm no harp player but in case you want to play in a minor key you will need to apply a little music theory. As harmonicas do not normally come in minor keys you can play in relative minors which are as follows... C=Am, D=Bm, E=Cm#, F=Dm, G=Em, A=Fm#, B=Gm#. That's how it was explained to me, hope it helps you a little.
 
While there are no set in stone rules, for most of the common blues/rock style harmonica you're going to want to play in what's called second position (or "cross harp"), which puts you in a mixolydian mode. In effect, a C harp would be used for playing in the key of G as bigtom said.... A ten hole diatonic harmonica doesn't contain every chromatic note and playing in second position allows you to play pentatonic/blues scales in such a way that you can only hit certain notes of the scale by "bending" into them (you probably know this, but roughly speaking this is done by blowing or drawing a note beyond the force required to hit the natural pitch of that particular reed). In second position it just so happens that these bends fall on favourable parts of the scale in terms of musical expression, hence its popularity.

Check this link for a better explanation and a table of what harmonica to use for what key in what position:
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/Positions.html
 
I'm a long-time harp player who just finished a gig playing in the orchestra pit for the musical Big River (based on The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn; music by Roger Miller) so I can pretend to have credentials.

1. Each harmonica is tuned to a specific scale (C, G, D#, etc) which means that it can be played in modes. The most common is cross-harp, which, as already noted, uses a mode based on the fourth of the key the harmonica is in. That means you can play your C harp in F, with the advantage that all intervals remain the same from F major, except that you now have a flat seventh, which is commonly used in blues and rock music.

2. This also means that, in playing in a key in which the harmonica designated for that key is high-pitched, you can play a lower-pitched instrument. For example, for the song "The Crossing" in the Big River score, I played a Lee Oscar Low F harmonica (it's called that because it is pitched an octave below the usual F harp) for a bluesy, mournful sound. I felt that a C harp would sound too whiny.

3. Carrying that a step further, if the music requires it, you can play a D harp (naturally high-pitched) in G, for example, and get that Jimmy Reed howl.

4. Some guys like harmonica belts, but that's not me. I have a Hohner harp case which carries about 10 harps along with a fishing lure box that I keep my bottlenecks, steels, and picks in for Dobro playing. It was quite a contrast walking up the steep steps to the orchestra pit each evening with the small case while the other players struggled with horns, amps, and whatnot. When I go out and gig, I take along a Shure Green Bullet mic on a straight mic stand with a gooseneck and quick-detach connector on it. That way I can leave the mic on the stand or easily pop it off and cup my hands around the harp and the mic.

5. I'm leaving out the other modes because I never use them. There was some material in the Big River score that called for such tricks, but luckily the director wanted a lonesome harmonica sound, and didn't particularly care whether I played as written -- except for the opening of the overture, which starts with a 16-bar harmonica solo (!) and a couple of cues where the harp leads into the song. I did the whole show with 4 harmonicas: the Low F, a Hohner Golden Melody in A, another in G, and a Lee Oscar in G for a raunchy duet with the Pap Finn character. These allowed me to play in C, G, A, E, and D using straight and cross harp technique.

6. Go for it. It's fun. AND there's too damn much "Bob Dylan" ineptitude in the world of harmonica playing.
 
Hey lpdeluxe,

Could you suggest any video tutorials or any sites that teach how to play a harp. I pull one out every once in a while but just get fed up and throw it back in the drawer. I never heard of positions on a harp before and would really like to check this out. :D:D

Thanks
Big Tom
 
bigtom said:
Hey lpdeluxe,

Could you suggest any video tutorials or any sites that teach how to play a harp. I pull one out every once in a while but just get fed up and throw it back in the drawer. I never heard of positions on a harp before and would really like to check this out. :D:D

Thanks
Big Tom
Click to expand...

Hi, Big Tom: I don't keep up with videos or instructional material on the harp. What I did, and what I suspect a lot of people do (who are self taught) is just keep one around, and when a melody catches my ear, I try to reproduce it on harmonica. Not very formal, but it has served me well.

One caveat: I can't think AND play harp! It works best when I just let it go. In the beginning, my only model was the early Rolling Stones material -- Spider and the Fly is a great, simple song to start off on. Otherwise, I listened to Little Walter and the guy who plays harp with Willie Nelson and just kind of picked up licks through osmosis.

I know, this isn't helpful, but the harp is so EASY to play that a few hours spent with it will indicate what direction you're going in. Don't record, don't try to reproduce harp parts on songs, just honk on that thing. Developing an intuitive sense of where a note is on the harp is much better than being anal, in my humble opinion. The best way to get there is to play along with -- whoever, recorded music, the radio, friends jamming in the living room, tv themes -- you need to put in the hours on the harp, one way or another.

Your own motivation will determine where you go. I love harp playing because it was so intuitive, once I got past thinking that I had to play a certain way. The harmonica is the ultimate "feel" instrument, and (no offense to those who are more disciplined) just learning to blow the damn thing is what I would advise.

Keep at it and good luck. If I can do it, anybody can!
 
Thanks lpdeluxe, I'll get it out and just try to have fun with it. I guess when you are used to sitting at a piano or guitar and just playing what you hear, I tend to forget the 30 plus years it took me to get to this point.

Thanks again,:):)

and sorry for hijacking the thread.:o:o
 
bigtom said:
Thanks lpdeluxe, I'll get it out and just try to have fun with it. I guess when you are used to sitting at a piano or guitar and just playing what you hear, I tend to forget the 30 plus years it took me to get to this point.

Thanks again,:):)

and sorry for hijacking the thread.:o:o
Click to expand...

No problem. You understand what I'm saying: it's so easy to get caught up in what someone else has done, where the real crux of the biscuit is finding your own voice. Have fun. At some point it will get to the point of "just playing what you hear:" to me, that's the ideal. 30 years? I started on the harp in 1977.....
 
Wow, thanks for all the response guys.

I do not have formal musical training, so myxelodian (though heard it before, along with dorian) scale means nothing to me:o
I recorded a short harmonica riff today, and after you guys had suggested that a C harmonica would fit best in the G key, I could not make it sound good in G. It sounds really good however in C, so I am thinking it might not be a C harmonica after all? As soon as I can figure out how to render to mp3 I'll post a clip here (Reaper wont let me, says I need some kind of "lame" sotware or other) and show you what I mean.

In the meantime, thanks for all your time and help, and are any of those 5 piece harmonica kits Musiciansfriend offers any good? The harp I have right now I got in germany, its a Hohner (if that means anything).


Mike
 
I am not nearly as accomplished as Ipdeluxe, but do play some harp. I do agree, it is a very intuative instrument, I play best when I just let go and wail. Get the most complements on my playing then, too. I do have and use some instructional books, working on playing with more precision (one note at a time, often) when that is called for.

After adding other keys one at a time, I just said F it and bought a 12-harp set (all major keys.) I can now play in any major or minor key. Also have a C vibrato harp, once I decide on a mic, all that plus my Deluxe Reverb or Monkey-Wards Model 6000 amp, and I will be set. JJ was right- travelin' light- it's the only way to fly!
 
Nightfire said:
I do not have formal musical training, so myxelodian (though heard it before, along with dorian) scale means nothing to me:o
Click to expand...
You could have said it was "greek" to you :D -- think of a C major scale with the 7 distinct notes (8 if you repeat at the octave, like I did below):

C D E F G A B C

that's also the "Ionian" mode of C

now use the same set of notes, but start on the second one:

D E F G A B C D

that's the "Dorian" mode of C, based on the second position in the Major/Ionian mode

just keep shifting to the next position to get to the other modes -- Lydian is off the fourth position (F, in the case of C), and Mixolidian is off the fifth (G, in the case of C). The sixth position, or "Aeolian" (A, in the case of C) is also the minor scale that's associated with the particular set of notes.

this article isn't too bad, except that I think it obscures the positional point I just tried to make: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

I've got C and G harps that I use - I'm a long way from having a complete set.
 
Allright, the more I know the less I understand:o;):D

Heres a quick clip recorded last night. I threw up a cheap dynamic mic and played a short piece. Now, this is a chord progression in C (C, F, G), and Im using a C harp to play on it, and I cant see how this harp could sound good in G (using a G, D, C chord progression).
In any case, excuse the sloppy playing, its a very pathetic piece. Im also using one of my feet to hit a hi-hat.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=15609


antichef said:
You could have said it was "greek" to you :D -- think of a C major scale with the 7 distinct notes (8 if you repeat at the octave, like I did below):

C D E F G A B C

that's also the "Ionian" mode of C

now use the same set of notes, but start on the second one:

D E F G A B C D

that's the "Dorian" mode of C, based on the second position in the Major/Ionian mode

just keep shifting to the next position to get to the other modes -- Lydian is off the fourth position (F, in the case of C), and Mixolidian is off the fifth (G, in the case of C). The sixth position, or "Aeolian" (A, in the case of C) is also the minor scale that's associated with the particular set of notes.

this article isn't too bad, except that I think it obscures the positional point I just tried to make: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

I've got C and G harps that I use - I'm a long way from having a complete set.
Click to expand...

Hey, I think I actually got that. Does this mean I could play the G mayor scale on guitar while playing over a piece written in C. Would I effectively then be playing in the mixolodian scale?


Mike
 
So, I guess Im playing "straight harp" if Im understanding this correctly.

I bought a D-harp today, and while I cant get decent things out of it in the D key, I have a hard time when playing a blue in the key of A, even though thats the cross harp way mode right?



Mike
 
No. The cross-harp key for a D harmonica is G.

To play in E, use an A harp; in D, a G; in C, an F. To play cross-harp in A, use an E harp.

You select a harmonica in the IV of the key you want to play in, which -- in terms of the harmonica key -- is the V.
 
lpdeluxe said:
No. The cross-harp key for a D harmonica is G.

To play in E, use an A harp; in D, a G; in C, an F. To play cross-harp in A, use an E harp.

You select a harmonica in the IV of the key you want to play in, which -- in terms of the harmonica key -- is the V.
Click to expand...

No, actually Nightfire was right before... the cross-harp key for a D harmonica is A.

I think you got that backwards as the cross-harp key for a G harmonica is D (not the other way around).

The other keys are all correct (ie: to play in E, use an A harp; to play in D, use a G harp; to play in C, use an F harp), except of course that last one. Cross-harp in A requires a D harp as initially discussed.
 
The nomenclature of the "second position" (commonly referred to as cross-harp) comes from it being the second position (relative to the harp's key) on the circle of fifths. Not the "second note along" on the scale or anything like that. The circle of fifths is basically a geometric/graphic represtentation of the various relationships between the 12 pitches of the chromatic scale, and is an indespensable tool for composition and improvisation.

I highly recommend you check out these links for a good run down on the circle of fifths. It should really help with your improv and to make sense of how everything ties together musically.
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/CircleOfFifths.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

Also, you might want to check out these too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_harp (especially the section titled Blues harp (2nd position))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_harp

The layout of the diatonic harmonica can be a little confusing at first, as the notes aren't really chromatically spaced, apart from in the center section of the harp. While at first glance this may seem counterproductive, it's actually good as it allows you to play both chords and melody and to integrate the two together.

The above run-downs (in the links) of the diatonic/blues harp, combined with the info on the circle of fifths should form a pretty good primer to get you started on improvising and playing in general. It's easier to play and make progress (I find) when you can see how everything ties together and can make sense of what's happening. That being said, my severe lack of practice ensures I remain a pretty poor harp player... :o
Practice wise though, it helps to listen to harp playing on recordings and try to copy the lines they play. Nothing fancy, just simple stuff at first and then work your way up to more complicated things as you get better.
Hope that helps some...
 
Ritzy said:
No, actually Nightfire was right before... the cross-harp key for a D harmonica is A.

I think you got that backwards as the cross-harp key for a G harmonica is D (not the other way around).

The other keys are all correct (ie: to play in E, use an A harp; to play in D, use a G harp; to play in C, use an F harp), except of course that last one. Cross-harp in A requires a D harp as initially discussed.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's easy to get things confused. I ordinarily play in A, C, E & G, and mostly cross-harp. I don't venture much into the higher-pitched keys, so I play straight harp in A, cross-harp [low F] in C, cross-harp [A] in E, and straight harp in G.
 
Nightfire said:
Hey, I think I actually got that. Does this mean I could play the G mayor scale on guitar while playing over a piece written in C. Would I effectively then be playing in the mixolodian scale?


Mike
Click to expand...

You're on the right track, but not quite there - Playing the C major scale over a piece in G would be G mixolydian.

Playing the F major scale over C would be C mixolydian.

Best of luck with your harmonica playing - I've never been any good at the damn things!
 
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