Hard Drive Performance.

Eurythmic

Eurythmic

majordomo plasticomo
Hey all!

Question. For those of you who record on 7200RPM hard drives, what kind of track throughput do you get with them?

See, I'm building a new computer. Right now I'm using a 5400RPM drive, 8GB - not even an ATA/33 interface. It has decent performance, but not enough if I want to work comfortably with 12-15+ tracks.

At first I thought I would get two 40GB 7200RPM drives, and stripe them into a RAID 0 array. I figured, might as well go with the best. But since then, I've realized that it really wouldn't be all that flexible. I'm going to put my hard drives into acoustic enclosures, and they take 5 1/4" drive bays - so I have to decide on two hard drives.

If I go with RAID, I'm pretty much limited to two 40GB drives due to heat issues. And I'm afraid those 80 gigabytes will run out rather quickly if I don't constantly back things up to CD.

So I thought, why not get one 7200RPM drive, and use that for speed-intensive stuff like Windows, applications, and recording, and then get another large capacity 5400RPM drive for long-term storage - it would be great to get all of my mp3s and videos off CDs and onto my computer full-time, for instance.

It sounds like a good solution to me, but I wouldn't want to go into it, only to find out that the one 7200RPM drive isn't fast enough for recording.

So, those of you who record on 7200RPM drives, and those of you who went the extra mile and got RAID 0 arrays, what kind of performance are you getting?
 
My System is not a sexy systen at all but clean.

P3 733 EB
512 ram
Audio drive ATA66 IBM 7200 rpm
System drive ATA33 Western Digital 5200 rpm
Vst 5/32R1
Win Me
Matrox G450 AGP graphics
MB fic KA6110 (Via Apolo Plus 133 Chipset)
SB Live
Delta 1010
Cubase VST/32 Latest revision

Tracks only (No effects)
From IBM Drive ATA 66 7200 Drive on EIDE 2 Bus

16 Bit Record 8 while playback 72 Record 2 while Playback 126
24 Bit Record 8 while playback 32 Record 1 while Playback 81
32 Bit Record 8 While playback 24 Record 1 while Playback 47

All tests tracks 4 minutes long at 44.1Kz and stable looped end
to end for hours of playback
Defragmentation carried out every 16 tracks recorded
(16 and 24 bit) and every 8 for 32 bit

Recorded at 11 ms latency (512 samples)

Practical latency with heavy vsti use + audio = 13 ms
Practical latency with light Vsti =8 ms

In practice 24 tracks playing at any one time is more than enough for me.
No reason for raid here at all.

Hippo
 
Hey, that's great!

I ought to be able to work very comfortably within those specs. Thanks so much for taking the time to do the benchmark. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.
 
a single 7200 rpm drive will give you what you want and more for audio, but youll want to use that drive only for the audio files...not the audio software, Windows, other apps....just the .wav files that are being written/read by your recording software...put this drive as a Master...if you want to slave another drive, even a slower one, for storage, that would be fine.....
 
I've heard that it's best to have a seperate drive just for audio data...

But if you have one faster, smaller drive and one slower, larger drive - and you install your OS and applications on the slower drive, wouldn't that hurt the performance of your computer when you're doing anything OTHER than recording?

I'm trying to find a setup that benefits recording, and overall performance as well - because as yet, I still can only afford one new computer at a time. :D

Of course, the ideal solution would be to just have two fast drives - but then I'm back to storage space and noise issues. Enclosing a 40GB 7200RPM drive is pretty safe, and enclosing a 60GB 7200RPM drive should be safe too. But any bigger than that, and you're working outside of the drive's heat specs.
 
"a single 7200 rpm drive will give you what you want and more for audio, but youll want to use that drive only for the audio files...not the audio software, Windows, other apps....just the .wav files that are being written/read by your recording software..."

Gidge, I've never understood this. Why have the fast drive just for storage? Also, why not put the audio software on the same drive?


"put this drive as a Master...if you want to slave another drive, even a slower one, for storage, that would be fine....."

Again, why? What difference does it make which one's master or slave?
 
Ill explain dobro. The harddrive works kinda like a printer. It uses head to read the data. The problem with having windows and apps on the same harddrive as you are recording on is this. While you recording, the drive also will have to get the information it needs to run windows, drivers, and your sequencer. The get this information, it must move its heads to a different section of the drive, thus breaking the stream in the audio. Huge problem. Thus, using two seperate drives, the harddrive for recording can constantly use its heads to record and read, and not have to move to get other information. Also, the information from the apps and windows is also loaded into the cache, and sent through the cable. In audio, you need to have a steady heavy flow of audio.

Eurythmic, definately use the 7200 RPM for the audio drive and you will have much better performance. But there is one problem i am seeing here, you want an ATA100 drive, the problem here is your motherboard might not support ATA100 so it will have no choice but to run at ATA33. Just a thought that a motherboard upgrade might be necessary to get the full performance. $200 can get you a new motherboard, 512M RAM, and probably about a 1.2GHz CPU, with a case. Just an option.

Also, i would look it further optimizing your windows for audio recording. Windows is not very well set up out of the box for audio so some adjustment need to be made if you want full performance.

Ive got:

Pentium III 800
256M RAM (soon adding another 512)
2 20GB ATA100 7200 RPM Drives / One for windows and apps, the other for audio recording. I have 3 partitions on the windows drive so i can have 3 seperate windows for different things. One for games, programs, one for straight audio windows, and the other is another audio windows incase the other one goes down, and also one that i let my assistant use for his projects.
1 40GB ATA100 7200 RPM Removable - This is really only for backup, i have it removable so i can have more than one backup drive later.
2 Delta 44s
Windows ME
NVidia Geforce MX400 - Good card for games, and also audio applications.


So far, i have not had any projects that have used more than 30% of my harddrive (infact i think even less) and i usually use around 12-16 tracks. Im guessing it could get almost 32 without problems. The problem i am faced with is running all my waves plugins.

Anyway, i hope this helped. Please let me know if you have any more questions. I am a computer technician and i also deal them so i can help you. Also if your a little pressed on cash i could possibly, maybe hook you up for some wholesale computer parts. Let me know.

Darnold
 
I've been around the block just a tad, too. ;-)

And yes, my motherboard only supports up to ATA-33. For a while I considered buying a BIOS upgrade, but I've since decided to build a new machine. The main guts of my computer are approaching three years old, and that's longer than I expected - it's really time for a major upgrade. I've tweaked and tweaked, and although it's fun to see people try to figure out why my machine is faster than early PIII-based machines, it's getting to the point where I can tell that my hard drive is getting ready to fail, and there are so many parts that I'd like to upgrade (such as the video card - I have a GeForce2 GTS in a shelf that I can't use, because my ancient motherboard can't supply adequate voltage) but can't.

I've just about got the whole machine planned out, but the roadblock I'm facing is that I want speed, silence, AND storage space.

The issue isn't really whether the audio hard drive will run faster if it's unencumbered by applications - I know that.

See... I'm so used to burning CDs filled with digital audio and video, and then just swapping them out when I want to listen to or watch them. Up until a year ago, I had a 3GB hard drive, and an 850MB hard drive - that's it! Somebody gave me an 8GB drive about a year ago, and for a while I thought I was really living the high life. :)

But I still have to dump stuff to CDR constantly. Right now, I have probably 30GB+ of mp3s and mpegs. (I buy what I like though, thank you very much! ;-) ) But recently, I read the hard drive guide over at storagereview.com (It's really interesting, any of you who happen to get off on that sort of thing - but extremely long), and it mentions that some people buy huge 5400RPM drives to use as long term storage. Well, that hit me like a ton of bricks! I'd never even thought of using a hard drive for long term storage before. I've never had the opportunity!

Having all of my media files at my fingertips, whenever I want them, is extremely attractive. Some of my CDRs are already approaching 4-5 years of age, and they're getting difficult to read.

But, I want to enclose the hard drives to deaden the noise. That means if I'm going to get one huge hard drive for long term storage, it's got to be 5400RPM (for lower heat dissipation). Of course, I could always get three drives - one for applications, one for recording space, and one for storage - but then I've got to get a full tower case, which I don't want to do. All the computers I've ever owned or built have looked like post-modern Frankenstein's Monsters. This machine is intended to look as elegant as it performs.

Or I could put the applications AND the long-term media on the 5400RPM drive and record on the 7200RPM, but then I'm compromising the speed of my machine when I'm doing anything other than recording. I don't want to do that, either.

See my dilemma? I'm trying to find a solution that's the best, or at least as good as possible, for EVERYTHING that I do - not just recording, while keeping it compact and affordable.

So, knowing all this, what do you think?

Also, I'm definitely interested in the possibility of wholesale parts. Maybe we can work something out. I'm strapped for cash pretty much always. :)
 
Dobro,

Darnold hit the nail on the head......that drive you use for audio files only isnt just storing them....it is constantly reading and writing and reading and writing and you get the picture....if it has to do other things, you may get that audio hiccup......

nobodys saying you have to have a separate hard drive or you have to have a 7200rpm drive, but it certainly helps...especially when you get into higher track counts nad wanting more stability.......

Ive got my recording setup on a lot less of a computer than alot of people recommend, but I have it setup for audio only (which I learned early from Grizzly, who I see still lurks here every now and then)...I surf the net and download porn on my wifes computer....if you took a standalone recorder like a digital 8 track and started using it to surf the internet, balance your checkbook, surf porn, make long distance calls, etc., how stable do you think it would perform?....
 
Gidge,

Why would the audio drive be master and the one with your OS and apps and everyhing else be slave? Did I read that right?

River
 
I have never thought about putting the recording drive as the master, but i definately see how it would be more stable. The Master port probably is the first thing that is transfered. So probably most of the resources like DMA is better on it. The controllers are probably more stable on that port also. I will have to try that out and see if i notice a performance difference.

Darnold
 
Please condense the "geekology" for us little people! :D

I've got an Athalon on a KT7 board with PC133 memory.
I'm using win98 and NTrack as the only recording software thus far.
I've got a 7200 60gb drive and will grab another smaller 7200 drive I guess.


1) Which should be primary?

2) Which information should be carried on each?

3) What performance settings (in english, now) should be used?

I like the idea of isolating the drives as a noise source, but two heat related questions come to mind:
How do ya keep 'em cool?
I've got several fans in my Addtronics case. How do you address noise related to fans?
 
But Darnold,

wouldn't the computer try to boot off the master drive, or am I a little off base in my slave/master definitions?
 
I have my windows drive on the primary master port, and my recording on the secondary master port. i have no problems. turn off write behind cacheing, and turn on the DMA on the drives. i have never had heating problems with the 3 harddrives i have in there. i have the case closed also. as far as isolating the noise, i have a couch infront of the computer. through a peice of foam up infront if thats all you got. just try not to cover up any air holes.

Darnold
 
Actually i have had times when it would boot off of the slave port (by accident). I think what is meant more is keeping it on the secondary master. sorry i got a little confused there. keep the windows drive on the primary master, and the recording to secondary master. sorry for the confusion there.

Darnold
 
Actually, I used the wrong word when I said "master"....what I meant was dont slave the audio drive......youll want the audio only drive as Secondary Master.....sorry for the mixup....

Boot drives, as far as i know, HAVE to be set as the primary master drive.....
 
"I've got several fans in my Addtronics case. How do you address noise related to fans?"

Addressing noise? I've tried two approaches. First: "Computer, shut the fuck up!"

The one that works: My monitor and other gear's on a table right beside the door. All cables out the door to the computer tower just outside the room (I had to buy extensions for the monitor, mouse and keyboard). Close the door. It cuts about 95% of the noise, and the rest of it's taken care of by pointing the ass end of the cardioids in the general direction of the door.
 
Do yourself a favor go with the raid cards and spend a couple of extra bucks on a server houseing, or a full size tower. I have a full size tower with 1084 megs o' ram, 5 40gb/5400rpm drives. It runs very smooth. The fans are fairly loud, however I keep the comp in another room and have mouse and keyboard extension cables daisy chained together (about 5 of them each) and a 30' monitor cable extension (3 10' extensions)....the tower was $150 at Microcenter
 
"Some of my CDRs are already approaching 4-5 years of age, and they're getting difficult to read. "

Huh? What's this about? All my stuff and all my back-up is on CDRs and CDRWs. I was hoping for a bit more than 5 years...

Also, is there any reason for thinking a hard drive will store data longer and more reliably than CD? Aside from the hassle of periodically transferring from hard drive to hard drive as drivers and such left the old stuff behind.
 
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