Guitarrón - split heel

crazydoc

crazydoc

Master Baiter
The side is cracked on one side, and the top is pulled out on the opposite side. There is also a loose top brace inside.

I'm thinking of just gluing it back with the appropriate adhesive, after putting everything is back in place. Clamping is going to pose a problem. Any thoughts appreciated. (I'm not going for looks - just playability.)

I'm posting this at MIMF also.
 

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I suggest Elmer's Carpenter's Glue and decking screws. That usually fixes most anything around here. :D
 
Definitely tempting to put a couple of drywall or deck screws up through there, or just down through the fingerboard. :)
 
You'll get good advice over at MIMF but they may be more concerned with doing it correctly I'd be the same though.:rolleyes: It's also got a bit slow over there of late I haven't checked in for months.

As for the problem at hand. Ouch....First a BIG proviso. Make sure you don't have a slipper heel in that. Those things often do. If so report back. If not read on....

Those breaks are not nice. Take the strings of now then supply more details.

Is the split effecting the end block? Has the neck come free of that? Is it a tenon or dovetail joint. Which brace is loose? Does the whole thing close up if cleanly if you manhandle it nack into position? Careful with that one. Clamping isn't a problem. There are plenty of ways to do that once you know whatyou going to be doing first Klemsia for the heel, masking tape for the top/side, closing clamp for the rib. Glue you'd want either Titebond Original or hot hide glue.

I'd want to be taking the neck off to do it properly though unless everything goes back easily and perfectly. The main reason for that is that the neck joint is a critical structural area and half baked repairs always fail eventually round that area.

What I'd do.

Remove the neck after separating the top and ribs enough to get it out.

Repair the cracked rib, repair and refit the neck heel and reglue the top.

As said a lot will depend on the nature of the neck join and how clean the break is.
 
muttley600 said:
You'll get good advice over at MIMF but they may be more concerned with doing it correctly I'd be the same though.:rolleyes: It's also got a bit slow over there of late I haven't checked in for months.

As for the problem at hand. Ouch....First a BIG proviso. Make sure you don't have a slipper heel in that. Those things often do. If so report back. If not read on....

Those breaks are not nice. Take the strings of now then supply more details.

Is the split effecting the end block? Has the neck come free of that? Is it a tenon or dovetail joint. Which brace is loose? Does the whole thing close up if cleanly if you manhandle it nack into position? Careful with that one. Clamping isn't a problem. There are plenty of ways to do that once you know whatyou going to be doing first Klemsia for the heel, masking tape for the top/side, closing clamp for the rib. Glue you'd want either Titebond Original or hot hide glue.

I'd want to be taking the neck off to do it properly though unless everything goes back easily and perfectly. The main reason for that is that the neck joint is a critical structural area and half baked repairs always fail eventually round that area.

What I'd do.

Remove the neck after separating the top and ribs enough to get it out.

Repair the cracked rib, repair and refit the neck heel and reglue the top.

As said a lot will depend on the nature of the neck join and how clean the break is.
Click to expand...
Looks like a stack laminate heel. Yeah. take the string tension off and clean the joint out of old glue.Is it hide or PVA???
 
muttley600 said:
You'll get good advice over at MIMF but they may be more concerned with doing it correctly I'd be the same though.:rolleyes: It's also got a bit slow over there of late I haven't checked in for months.

As for the problem at hand. Ouch....First a BIG proviso. Make sure you don't have a slipper heel in that. Those things often do. If so report back. If not read on....

Those breaks are not nice. Take the strings of now then supply more details.

Is the split effecting the end block? Has the neck come free of that? Is it a tenon or dovetail joint. Which brace is loose? Does the whole thing close up if cleanly if you manhandle it nack into position? Careful with that one. Clamping isn't a problem. There are plenty of ways to do that once you know whatyou going to be doing first Klemsia for the heel, masking tape for the top/side, closing clamp for the rib. Glue you'd want either Titebond Original or hot hide glue.

I'd want to be taking the neck off to do it properly though unless everything goes back easily and perfectly. The main reason for that is that the neck joint is a critical structural area and half baked repairs always fail eventually round that area.

What I'd do.

Remove the neck after separating the top and ribs enough to get it out.

Repair the cracked rib, repair and refit the neck heel and reglue the top.

As said a lot will depend on the nature of the neck join and how clean the break is.
Click to expand...



Yeah. But I'm about 90% sure the neck block is cracked, and if that thing is a Paracho instrument (which seems likely), it probably has a Spanish heel, which makes the repair a giant PITA. In all likelihood, if you brought it into our shop we would tell you that your money would be better spent on a new one. Since it is your time, and not mine, I'll first say that your time is likely better spent MAKING a new one than repairing it, but if you really want to repair it, look at Frank Ford's Article on Resetting A Spanish Heel.

If you really want to repair this so it will last, that is what you are probably looking at. If, as Muttley and I suspect, the "neck block" is cracked, your first priority is to get the neck block solid again.After that, gluing the heel back together after that is usually pretty easy, though if it's been like that for a while you may find that the top and sides don't fit right anymore.

Spend some time at Frank's Site, it will be an enormous help.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
crazydoc said:
Thanks for the replies. What is a slipper heel?
Click to expand...

A slipper heel is one that's an integral part of the neck. The ribs are often slotted into them. That's what raised alarm bells because I've seen that sort of rib damage before. Plus the fact that it's a common building method on instruments of that type and origin. Tell tale signs would be that the block inside is also split and that the block has an extension that runs on toward the sound hole. The latter not necessarily.

EDIT: Another word for slipper heel is Spanish heel as light says above. Simultaneous post and all that. ;-)
 
Light said:
Yeah. But I'm about 90% sure the neck block is cracked, and if that thing is a Paracho instrument (which seems likely), it probably has a Spanish heel, which makes the repair a giant PITA. In all likelihood, if you brought it into our shop we would tell you that your money would be better spent on a new one. Since it is your time, and not mine, I'll first say that your time is likely better spent MAKING a new one than repairing it, but if you really want to repair it, look at Frank Ford's Article on Resetting A Spanish Heel.

If you really want to repair this so it will last, that is what you are probably looking at. If, as Muttley and I suspect, the "neck block" is cracked, your first priority is to get the neck block solid again.After that, gluing the heel back together after that is usually pretty easy, though if it's been like that for a while you may find that the top and sides don't fit right anymore.

Spend some time at Frank's Site, it will be an enormous help.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

It's a Chinese made "Lucida." I'm a little hesitant to try to remove the fingerboard, not knowing what glues were used.

I've already done the Frank Ford repair on another guitar
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=206779
and don't think that would be a fix for this one, as I'm sure the block is cracked inside.

muttley600 said:
A slipper heel is one that's an integral part of the neck. The ribs are often slotted into them. That's what raised alarm bells because I've seen that sort of rib damage before. Plus the fact that it's a common building method on instruments of that type and origin. Tell tale signs would be that the block inside is also split and that the block has an extension that runs on toward the sound hole. The latter not necessarily.

EDIT: Another word for slipper heel is Spanish heel as light says above. Simultaneous post and all that. ;-)
Click to expand...
Yes, the block is split through on the inside. The lower part is still affixed to the guitar sides, but I can feel the neck extension move when I move the neck. I'd think that if I can get glue through the whole split and find a way to get a clamp on it, that would fix it ("glue is stronger than the original wood" and all that.)

Anyway, I'm not quite ready to get started on this (renovating the shop), so I've got some time to cogitate.
 
crazydoc said:
It's a Chinese made "Lucida." I'm a little hesitant to try to remove the fingerboard, not knowing what glues were used.

I've already done the Frank Ford repair on another guitar
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=206779
and don't think that would be a fix for this one, as I'm sure the block is cracked inside.

Yes, the block is split through on the inside. The lower part is still affixed to the guitar sides, but I can feel the neck extension move when I move the neck. I'd think that if I can get glue through the whole split and find a way to get a clamp on it, that would fix it ("glue is stronger than the original wood" and all that.)

Anyway, I'm not quite ready to get started on this (renovating the shop), so I've got some time to cogitate.
Click to expand...

It's really your call. What light says is correct, what I've said is correct. The proper fix is involved as we've established that it's a slipper heel which is what I suspected originally. That changes things as far as the correct fix goes.

Yes you can just inject some glue in there and clamp it up. Will it work for long? Who knows. Will you get the geometry of the neck back as it should be? Who knows.

The wood of the neck/heel is one piece, or it should be and it's cleaved open thats not ane easy split to repair blind which is what your suggesting.

The correct way of doing it is a lot of work as well. So ultimately you have to decide on your skill level, how much time and effort you can afford to devote to it and if the end result is worth the effort. One thing is certain, if you clamp it up blind and it fails now or later you have doubled the amount of work to correct it.
 
A quick google turned up a Lucida Guitarron at MF for $350 with gig bag. Unless you want to do a proper repair as described by Muttley or Light for the sake of experience, it probably isn't worth the time it would take.

It looks like the neck failed at the glue line (The pix of the one at MF clearly show a glued on heel). This is a blessing and a curse. the blessing is that the break is probably pretty clean. This improves your odds of getting the neck angle back close enough to return the thing back to playability. The curse is that doing a repair like you suggested means you have no way to clean up any old glue residue. The resulting new glue joint will not be as strong. It may be worth a try though. What have you got to lose?

Why dont you try removing all the strings and seeing if you can get everything to go back together in a dry fit. If it fits up dry you have some hope.
 
The crack is through virgin wood about 3 or 4mm below the glue line, so there is no old glue to deal with. I think I am going to try to fit it back together dry, and put a couple of 3" deck screws through from the fingerboard, through the neck, with one into the heel and the other into the block inside. If I can draw it down tight and maintain the original neck angle, then I'll redo it with glue. The screws will be countersunk and covered with filler or pearl.
 
crazydoc said:
The crack is through virgin wood about 3 or 4mm below the glue line, so there is no old glue to deal with. I think I am going to try to fit it back together dry, and put a couple of 3" deck screws through from the fingerboard, through the neck, with one into the heel and the other into the block inside. If I can draw it down tight and maintain the original neck angle, then I'll redo it with glue. The screws will be countersunk and covered with filler or pearl.
Click to expand...




NO SCREWS!!!!!!!!!!!

At least, not like that.


If you don't want to put enough work in to fix it right (and I can't blame you if you don't), then clamp it dry, and see what it looks like. If it looks like it will work, and you really don't care how it turns out, try gluing it up. It might work, might not, but screws are bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
NO SCREWS!!!!!!!!!!!

At least, not like that.


If you don't want to put enough work in to fix it right (and I can't blame you if you don't), then clamp it dry, and see what it looks like. If it looks like it will work, and you really don't care how it turns out, try gluing it up. It might work, might not, but screws are bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I popped over too mimf and read the advice given there. There's one guy suggesting the use of screws despite being told otherwise by folks who know. Sadly that place has gone down hill in recent times. It used to be mostly builders and experienced hobbyists giving out good advice. Now it's anybody who's built or fixed a guitar.

I'm with light definitely no screws. It just doesn't help and actually makes the heel weaker especially on slipper heels that have cleaved. You need to use a series of clamps and cauls to get even pressure across the whole of the split.
 
Last edited:
Screws are a bad Idea but a couple of dowels may not be.

Clamping that sucker will be a real challenge. Constructing a caul may take more time than any other part of the repair.
 
Light said:
NO SCREWS!!!!!!!!!!!

At least, not like that.


If you don't want to put enough work in to fix it right (and I can't blame you if you don't), then clamp it dry, and see what it looks like. If it looks like it will work, and you really don't care how it turns out, try gluing it up. It might work, might not, but screws are bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

reminds me of

"Four legs good, two legs bad"

:D

"glue good, screws bad"

why?
 
Not just any kind of screws, mind ya - coated decking screws with quadrex-bit heads. (Keeps the matching driver bit from reaming out the screw head, or slipping out and marring the finish of whatever you're running the screw into.....:D )

Edit: Don't forget to pre-drill your holes, and countersink for the screw head. You wouldn't want to crack that fingerboard when you run those screws in nice and hard to tighten everything up. ;)































To Muttley and Light: In case you have temporarily lost your senses of humor:
I'm joking. Although it does sound appealing. :D
 
Light said:
NO SCREWS!!!!!!!!!!!

At least, not like that.


If you don't want to put enough work in to fix it right (and I can't blame you if you don't), then clamp it dry, and see what it looks like. If it looks like it will work, and you really don't care how it turns out, try gluing it up. It might work, might not, but screws are bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

What's wrong with screws? Frank seems to like them.

"After I have the neck block holes drilled and countersunk, I can hold the neck back in position on the body and mark the hole locations on the heel by simply sticking a pencil into the holes and rotating it to get a good mark on the heel. Drilling 3/8" holes in the heel, I can simply screw in standard hardware brass thread inserts which will receive the 1/4-20 machine screws to bolt on the neck:"

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/BCRIchReset/bcrichreset5.html
 
crazydoc said:
What's wrong with screws? Frank seems to like them.

"After I have the neck block holes drilled and countersunk, I can hold the neck back in position on the body and mark the hole locations on the heel by simply sticking a pencil into the holes and rotating it to get a good mark on the heel. Drilling 3/8" holes in the heel, I can simply screw in standard hardware brass thread inserts which will receive the 1/4-20 machine screws to bolt on the neck:"

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/BCRIchReset/bcrichreset5.html
Click to expand...


I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, and understand that is a completely different situation.

In case you are serious, Frank is a friend of mine, and I can promise you he would agree with me.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, and understand that is a completely different situation.

In case you are serious, Frank is a friend of mine, and I can promise you he would agree with me.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...
I realize it's a different application, and I posted it tongue-in-cheek. But I am seriously asking "what is wrong with screws?" in my application, and in general, aside from aesthetic considerations. That is, in an engineering sense, what are the differences in a straight glue job, a glue job with dowels, or a glue job with screws? All have been suggested to me as possible repairs. I screw and glue all kinds of wooden constructions - what is so different about a musical instrument?

The one significant advantage I see to screws is that it obviates the need to make a caul or other form fitted device to place over the back that I can use to clamp the repair. The screws will pull the split parts back into place and clamp them while the glue sets. Then the screws could be removed and the holes filled, if they are going to cause differential expansion problems in the future of the instrument.

And then in the end, it is just a cheap Chinese guitarrón. :)
 
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