Guitar Harmony vs. Rhythm Guitars

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SuicideNote

always improving
Probably a newbie question here but here it goes.

A song that I am currently working on has several layered rhythm guitars (4 tracks, 2 pan L and 2 pan R 100%). At times there are some harmony guitars playing over the top of those layerd tracks. I used the same rig setup for all guitars. Now when I play it back, during the harmony sections it sounds confusing with all of the guitars playing at the same time. I am seeking better clarity for the harmony sections.

How should I change my setup (EQ wise?) to make room for the harmony tracks? The lead guitar solo seems to come though fine. Perhaps, I should start by using the solo guitar setup and tweaking it until it sounds right. I could probably EQ the harmony guitars now that I have it down on tape but, I'd rather get it right to start with.

I'm sure you experienced engineers have come across this before. How did you approach the setup so that different guitar parts could be distinguished from eachother? I'm just looking to be pointed in the right direction, I'm sure i'll have to play with things until it just sounds right. EQ is probably not the only solution. I'd appreciate any help on this matter.
 
I'm by no means an expert, and I'm not even quite sure what you mean by Harmony Guitars. Generally, I pan rhythm halfway right and halfway left and lead guitar pretty much straight up the middle.

I might be sounding real stupid here, but what is Harmony Guitar anyway?
 
By harmony guitar I mean 1 guitar that plays part of a melody that is harmonized between 2 guitars. For this song it's pretty much a 4th interval thoughout the entire passage.

Sirnothingness said:
I'm by no means an expert, and I'm not even quite sure what you mean by Harmony Guitars. Generally, I pan rhythm halfway right and halfway left and lead guitar pretty much straight up the middle.

I might be sounding real stupid here, but what is Harmony Guitar anyway?
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You could be right off the bat... the lead guitar is panned right up the middle. I harmony guitars were panned off center, but not by much.
 
So you used the same rig and settings for all the parts? That's probably your main problem. All of the guitars have the same tone and are fighting for the same space. Changing the tone up between takes will help more then you might think.
 
Generally speaking - whenever I use more than 2 guitar parts and they start having to share any amount of space (so they are not hard panned), I start to get really really anal about timing. Things have to be spot on and in time or else they can start to sound "confusing".
This might or might not be your problem, but its fixed some of my past recordings.
Good luck.
Todd
 
SuicideNote said:
Probably a newbie question here but here it goes.

A song that I am currently working on has several layered rhythm guitars (4 tracks, 2 pan L and 2 pan R 100%). At times there are some harmony guitars playing over the top of those layerd tracks. I used the same rig setup for all guitars. Now when I play it back, during the harmony sections it sounds confusing with all of the guitars playing at the same time. I am seeking better clarity for the harmony sections.

How should I change my setup (EQ wise?) to make room for the harmony tracks? The lead guitar solo seems to come though fine. Perhaps, I should start by using the solo guitar setup and tweaking it until it sounds right. I could probably EQ the harmony guitars now that I have it down on tape but, I'd rather get it right to start with.

I'm sure you experienced engineers have come across this before. How did you approach the setup so that different guitar parts could be distinguished from eachother? I'm just looking to be pointed in the right direction, I'm sure i'll have to play with things until it just sounds right. EQ is probably not the only solution. I'd appreciate any help on this matter.
Click to expand...


One thing that may be making things sound confusing is slight differences in timing between those rhythm parts. The denser a mix gets, the more critical timing issues become. You've got to be able to "see" the white spaces between all those notes.

Just another observation here...

Sometimes a concept that sounds good on paper just turns out to be a bad idea. If it doesn't work for you after a reasonable amount of effort, sometimes what is wrong is the approach itself. Do you really need all those rhythm guitars playing at the same time, or are they redundant? Speaking for myself, I just hate it when I hear that old saw "Less is more", but sometimes it's the truth. Letting go of something that you have poured a lot of work into is one of the hardest things to do, but being able to do that is an important part of engineering.
 
I cant echo ggunn's last paragraph enough. I,..like most guitarist's (right?) write a melody than think of at least a hundred different harmonies and variants of it. Sometimes I cant get all the ideas down fast enough. Here is the hard part,....letting go what you dont need. There has been so many times that I've deleted a track (painfully) that the song just didnt need. Well,..at least in my opinion,..the song didnt need it,..and it was clouding things up.
Anyway,..just thought I'd throw that in there.

Take 'er easy,..
Calwood
 
It sounds as though you have too many guitar parts to me...

Remember K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple Stupid ;)

If every part is *essential* to the arrangement, work out exactly what that part is bringing to the party. Then record that part on an appropriate set-up. Vary the guitars, amps, eq and effects according to the part's reason for existing. Every part should either live in its own space and have great seperation, or blend with another part to make a single sound. Most importantly every part should have *something to say*.

If you can't visualise the part in its own space on the sound stage, bringing something really important to the track, then lose it.
Of course you may want to try some automation to bring parts in and out. SOme parts are good for a bar or two and then they should go.

Another quick tip is, if you're using a bass sound on the track, begin by putting a low shelf on all your guitar parts. That will take away some mud and boominess and increase seperation.
 
This may or may not be an option for you, but I have discovered that when recording multiple parts (harmony) to use different guitars and different amps. The same idea applies to guitar as to voice. Different voices create harmony while multiple tracks of the same just sound like a double tracked voice track, the same is true of guitars. If you have to use the same guitar for more than one track you need to make each track sound distinct from the others. Try different amp settings, EQ each track differently, avoid setting anything exactly the same on two tracks. Sometimes even a very slight change will help a guitar track to occupy it's own space in the mix. You want each part to be distinguishable and distinct, not just an overdub of something else. Try not to pan any of the parts to the same spot, you want the different parts to complement the others not to compete with them. I hope at least some of this makes sense, good luck with putting some seperation in your tracks.
 
Thanks for the help. Those are all excellent tips. I do believe that the problem lies with using the same setup for too many parts. When I go back into the studio tonight, I'll redo the parts using a different amp or guitar combination, just to see how that comes across. I'm pretty sure that's the direction I was looking for. Thanks again.
 
There's not much I can say here that hasn't been said. When I record with the same amp on the same settings playing the same part (even when doing a hard L/R pan), it starts to sound like I have a chorus pedal switched on instead of two distinct guitar parts that compliment each other well.

Play a different guitar, play through a different pickup, use another channel on your amp, use slightly less gain, tweak your settings, or use a different mic or mic position to record the second tracks. Maybe even a different amp or cabinet altogether. If you are recording using preamp distortion, try recording the second track with a clean amp and a distortion box instead.

Some combo of all that junk will yield two great guitar tones that sound great together.
 
Try ditching 2 of the rhythm guitars when the harmony comes in, or like metalhead28 said, playing with volume on the rhythm guitar.

Guitars that are heavy in the bass/treble area tend to fade off in the mix, so if your rhythm guitars are bass/treble heavy, make your melody/harmony guitars focused more on the mid-range. This is to be done on the guitar and amps itself, rather than post-tracking.
 
Some things that I have found helpful over the years are things I nevr really wanted to do...for example recording with less distortion/gain to tape (or HD) than you like hearing makes tracks jump out of the mix more and sound more lively- especially with lead.

I just hate turning it below 11 :(
 
Do you really need 2 performances on each side? If you do, redo 1 on each side and insert the harmony part when it comes up. That way when the harmony comes, it has room.
 
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