Gordon Lightfoot's "Early Morning Rain" - bluegrass style

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banjo71

New member
I just reinstalled Pro Tools on my new Win 10 OS. It took awhile for me to get the interface working with stability (Focusrite Scarlett 2i2).

I'm recording in 44.1kHz 24 bit. All stereo tracks except for the electric bass. I'm using a Perception 150 AKG condenser and an Equation F.20 large diaphragm for mics.

You'll have to excuse the breathing in the background on a few parts LOL and the solo guitar is a bit flat tuning wise. I recorded all the parts (banjo, guitars, mandolins, and bass).

I'm using all stock plugins from Pro Tools 12.5. I like the Space reverb - I'm using a light vintage spring reverb. I also like the Channel Strip EQ better than EQ III 7 band.

It took some time getting the right volume mixes on guitar/bass. The tone on the banjo finally came out where I wanted it, and I think the guitar tone turned out pretty well.

Using some soft opto compression and gentle limiter (a wee bit) then some EQ on the Master buss.

There about 5 times or so the "band" stops and then another instrument takes a solo. During these stops that ring out, I was having problems with the bass not fading enough, like the compression release was not set right. I think I may have to work on that a little more, but here is the song so far.

Early Morning Rain - Banjo Hangout Jukebox
 
The playing is excellent. Nice work. My first impression is that every time the lead instrument changes, it sounds like you moved to a different room. In other words, it's not cohesive. Not sure why that is, nor how to help. Maybe putting a slight reverb across the whole thing might help, but that's just a guess. You need to figure out a way to make this sound like a song that was played together, and not a patchwork of individual parts. Also, it seemed to me that each of the lead instruments went away after their turn in the spotlight. Is that the case? I would keep everything going throughout the entire song, just move them to a supporting role - if that makes any sense?
 
Thanks, number one, for commenting on my post. And for being honest.

The individual instruments were all recorded in the same room, and so I should be able to eq them so they don't sound like patch work. I appreciate your insight. I think this is one of the hardest things about mixing for me is the cohesiveness. And I do know what you mean about the other point of the instrument solos "doing their thing then I'm out". I could probably have done some light back up on each instrument throughout the whole song.

I could attempt different reverbs across the whole sound, but I think it's an EQ thing that I need to work on more. I'm going to work on that part first, and leave the fill in instrumentation changes for later.

I'll give it a whirl.
 
I enjoyed the playing. Bluegrass is great...great job continuing that spirit.
I do hear the instruments sound in a different space.

I'm not sure reverb is what you need. I think it's more an arrangement, volume, and EQ issue. e.g. Why let the banjo stop before bringing in the mandolin? The moving the banjo to the background? That implies the banjo player walked to the back of the room in the middle of a song. That's what's making it incohesive.
 
Nola said:
Why let the banjo stop before bring in the mandolin? The moving the banjo to the background? That implies the banjo player walked to the back of the room in the middle of a song.
Click to expand...
Or got tired and went home. :)

It very well could be an eq issue as opposed to reverb. You just need to find a way to make it sound like these musicians were all playing together at the same time in the same place. Having instruments drop out doesn't help either.
 
I do hear what you guys are talking about. I re eq'd everything and actually lowered the spring reverb which was resonating too much low end. This cut is just the mix, nothing on the master buss.

The banjo volume may still be too loud during solos. But I think the instruments sound like they're together more now.

In a lot of bluegrass mixes you will hear the banjo 'walk out into the other room' while it's not soloing - just to stay out of the way and interfering with mandolin and guitar solos.

http://http://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/media-player/audio_player2.asp?musicid=39227&archived=
 
hey banjo. if you post the files in the "mix this" i'll give it a shot. I like the tune and playing a lot and would work on it.

Your mix is better, but there's still some boxiness and eq problems.
 
Sheesh, I think the second mix sounds pretty good myself. I don't really hear the different space thing or mind the bringing instruments in and out. I think the banjo, and maybe even the mando could use a little more air. Nice playing though!
How are you miking your mandolin?
 
I didn't hear a space problem on the second version. I agree the banjo could come down a bit more. Not a lot, just to let the other instruments support better. Some more bass would be nice.

I don't have ears like many on the board, but I thought it was a good mix overall. Little less banjo and tad more bass would do the trick to my ears. Very nice.
 
Nola, thanks, I would except I have a limited data plan on my internet usage. I'd rather be hooked up to cable or DSL for that. Thanks though.
 
fat_fleet said:
Sheesh, I think the second mix sounds pretty good myself. I don't really hear the different space thing or mind the bringing instruments in and out. I think the banjo, and maybe even the mando could use a little more air. Nice playing though!
How are you miking your mandolin?
Click to expand...

I've got two mics, one is an AKG Perception 150 aimed at about 12th fret and about 12" away. Then I have an Equation F.20 large diaphragm sitting about 8-10" aimed off the bridge, a little to the right of the bridge actually.
 
DM60 said:
I didn't hear a space problem on the second version. I agree the banjo could come down a bit more. Not a lot, just to let the other instruments support better. Some more bass would be nice.

I don't have ears like many on the board, but I thought it was a good mix overall. Little less banjo and tad more bass would do the trick to my ears. Very nice.
Click to expand...

I agree. Here is my latest mix then with less banjo and a tad more bass.



Early Morning Rain mix 6 - Banjo Hangout Jukebox
 
I think it sounds awesome. Great pickin'!

I listened to the original mix and am listening to mix 6 now.

I guess I can kind of see what the others were saying about the solo instruments abruptly exiting, but I don't know that I would have picked up on it on my own? I don't even know the tune it's based on, but you effectively convey the melody, and the variations on the theme are interesting throughout.

It's a clean and clear mix with a good sense of space. I like it.
 
Hey Banjo, no problem. I would really like a shot to mix this because I dig it.
Your 6th mix is nicer. Appreciate the increase in bass. The bass is sitting really nicely now.

To my ear, there is still EQ imbalance between the mandolin and banjo. It doesn't really matter b/c most listeners aren't going to care or notice. The banjo is a little boxy, and the mandolin has more clarity and is brighter than the banjo. Can you try cutting like 3b from 400hz on the banjo (I'd use a wider Q than usual for a cut, make it touch like 350 on the left and 500 on the right). Boost the banjo around 2k (though try 4-5k as well) with a wide Q about 2 to 3db. Cut the mandolin like 2db somewhere between 2k and 4k just to make it less bright/present and blend a bit more with the banjo. It's hard to say without the tracks, but something along those lines give or take.

I'd also suggest slightly more l/r separation in the intro section with the dueling banjos. It sound like you have the panning fairly tight, maybe 30-40 pan l/r on each? I'd go a little wider like 55-60 l/r pan. I wouldn't go too wide as I don't feel that would suit bluegrass. But it could use a tiny bit more separation when both banjos are going.

At the 2:10 mark there's a sudden energy loss. Check your automation volume levels. Maybe something got screwed up there. If not, you need to ride the fader up there because it's a bit odd. I understand you want some dynamics but it's significantly lower in volume.
 
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Nola said:
Hey Banjo, NP. I would really like a shot to mix this because I dig it.
Your 6th mix is nicer. Appreciate the increase in bass. The bass is sitting really nicely now.

To my ear, there is still EQ imbalance between the mandolin and banjo. It doesn't really matter b/c most listeners aren't going to care or notice. The banjo is a little boxy, and the mandolin has more clarity and is brighter than the banjo. Can you try cutting like 3b from 400hz on the banjo (I'd use a wider Q than usual for a cut, make it touch like 350 on the left and 500 on the right). Boost the banjo around 2k (though try 4-5k as well) with a wide Q about 2 to 3db. Cut the mandolin like 2db somewhere between 2k and 4k just to make it less bright/present and blend a bit more with the banjo. It's hard to say without the tracks, but something along those lines give or take.

I'd also suggest slightly more l/r separation in the intro section with the dueling banjos. It sound like you have the panning fairly tight, maybe 30-40 pan l/r on each? I'd go a little wider like 55-60 l/r pan. I wouldn't go too wide as I don't feel that would suit bluegrass. But it could use a tiny bit more separation when both banjos are going.

At the 2:10 mark there's a sudden energy loss. Check your automation volume levels. Maybe something got screwed up there. If not, you need to ride the fader up there because it's a bit odd. I understand you want some dynamics but it's significantly lower in volume.
Click to expand...

You're a genius, Nola.. you helped alleviate the overall clash of instrument eqs. I did what you told me to do, and I really like the mandolin now. And you were right about the energy loss at 2:10... At 2:10 I was punching in on the banjo to end the song dozens of times, and (I'll never do this again!!) I had turned the input gain down on the preamp on one of the stereo mics because it seemed to hot. I forgot about doing that until you brought it up. So I split it into mono tracks (for banjo) and did the dithered gain increase on thing on that banjo signal. Just a hair.

Played with the pan, and bounced it again.

Early Morning Rain mix 7 - Banjo Hangout Jukebox
 
banjo71 said:
You're a genius, Nola.. you helped alleviate the overall clash of instrument eqs. I did what you told me to do, and I really like the mandolin now. And you were right about the energy loss at 2:10... At 2:10 I was punching in on the banjo to end the song dozens of times, and (I'll never do this again!!) I had turned the input gain down on the preamp on one of the stereo mics because it seemed to hot. I forgot about doing that until you brought it up. So I split it into mono tracks (for banjo) and did the dithered gain increase on thing on that banjo signal. Just a hair.

Played with the pan, and bounced it again.

Early Morning Rain mix 7 - Banjo Hangout Jukebox
Click to expand...

Awesome, Banjo71!
Love this mix much more. Sounds cohesive and organic as bluegrass should.

The little bit more separation really helps. The EQ is now nice. One of the two banjos could be slightly brighter for further separation, but it's good as-is as well. Did you EQ both banjo tracks the same? I'd give whichever is more important a slight EQ boost (slightly more narrow Q than the moves discussed above) at somewhere between 2-5k (sweep it to find where it peaks out more) and let the other part sit behind it just a smidgen.

That's nit picky but might help a hair. It's great as is so maybe do nothing if the above doesn't sound good. Nice job!
Keep posting bluegrass. I'm a big bluegrass fan. Do you have any originals?
 
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Nola said:
Awesome, Banjo71!
Love this mix much more. Sounds cohesive and organic as bluegrass should.

The little bit more separation really helps. The EQ is now nice. One of the two banjos could be slightly brighter for further separation, but it's good as-is as well. Did you EQ both banjo tracks the same? I'd give whichever is more important a slight EQ boost (slightly more narrow Q than the moves discussed above) at somewhere between 2-5k (sweep it to find where it peaks out more) and let the other part sit behind it just a smidgen.

That's nit picky but might help a hair. It's great as is so maybe do nothing if the above doesn't sound good. Nice job!
Keep posting bluegrass. I'm a big bluegrass fan. Do you have any originals?
Click to expand...

I do, I'll have to work something out. I've got a 48kHz session with Ron Stewart on fiddle, I'll have to work on that one a bit though. It's called Mainline Runner, another instrumental. I've been having problems opening 48kHz sessions but I'll try to work with it.
 
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