Blue Bear Sound
New member
Yes - but not by you..........jfreeman373 said:
Good Monitors = Good Mixes
- Thread starter zallen25
- Start date
Seems to me Mr./Ms. Freeman has chosen to ignore a crucial point that was made by Blue Bear right at the start of this whole disaster:
The majority of the hit records in the last few decades were mixed on Yamah NS-10m's. Would Mr./Ms. Freeman like to claim that this was because they were the flattest monitors available?
The Yamaha's were one of the first easily portable monitors, and as such were carried around by many engineers who needed a "known quality" for mixing. Eventually almost every pro studio in the world had a pair, because engineers were all FAMILIAR with them: meaning both their flaws and their attributes. (The midrange is harsh, they have no bass, and the highs are not particularly pretty either.)
Because they worked with the these monitors on a regular basis, many engineers STILL prefer the NS-10m's in spite of their obvious limitations, because they KNOW them. Give some engineers a nice set of Genelecs, and they'll still want to hear everything through a set of NS-10m's before signing off on a mix.
What's the point? Everyone has their own way of working. If the end product is a stunning record, do you (freeman) really have the hubris to tell us we obviously know nothing about how to mix and monitor properly? Referring to the NS-10 example, history would seem to imply otherwise.
The majority of the hit records in the last few decades were mixed on Yamah NS-10m's. Would Mr./Ms. Freeman like to claim that this was because they were the flattest monitors available?
The Yamaha's were one of the first easily portable monitors, and as such were carried around by many engineers who needed a "known quality" for mixing. Eventually almost every pro studio in the world had a pair, because engineers were all FAMILIAR with them: meaning both their flaws and their attributes. (The midrange is harsh, they have no bass, and the highs are not particularly pretty either.)
Because they worked with the these monitors on a regular basis, many engineers STILL prefer the NS-10m's in spite of their obvious limitations, because they KNOW them. Give some engineers a nice set of Genelecs, and they'll still want to hear everything through a set of NS-10m's before signing off on a mix.
What's the point? Everyone has their own way of working. If the end product is a stunning record, do you (freeman) really have the hubris to tell us we obviously know nothing about how to mix and monitor properly? Referring to the NS-10 example, history would seem to imply otherwise.
jfreeman373
New member
To be honest with you all, I have mixed on speakers of my own creation for years. They had a six inch woofer that cost 30 dollars by madisound and I designed my own crossover to a one inch dome tweeter by the same company.
To be realistic to my own standards today, they sounded like crap, but they were better than the radio shack crap that I could afford, and so..... I did my reasearch. It was alot easier to learn than it was to spend money. I learned how to translate mixes by trial and error and learned that I obviously wasn't doing something right, but I kept on mixing, I kept on playing, and I know play 7 instruments fluently and have even built my own tube preamp for my guitar.
Now I mix for a local television station and work on commercials and run camera for the news at 5:00 5:30 and 6:00. I also own my own studio packed with equipment that I don't need to mention, but I obviously don't know anything at all (sounds like dog shit I know).
I had to learn the hard way, and after fifteen years of working in the field, I thought I could help some people circumvent alot of waisted time and frustration with the years of experience and knowledge I have obtained, but everyone knows it all.
Now I wouldn't say that most hit records were mixed on crappy monitors because they were flat, I would say they were mixed on crappy speakers because the average person HAS crappy speakers. If the song sounds decent on YOUR crappy speakers, that it probably sounds descent on THEIR crappy speakers.
Especially if you are mixing electronic music like rap, hip hop, or industrial. If that's what your mixing, than that is ok. You are not trying to reproduce reality, you are sttempting to create an image that is in your mind, and THAT is VERY subjective. Now if you are mixing, Jazz, Classical, Acoustic, or Live performances, the idea is to try and give it justice. Not make it sound how YOU Think it should sound.
Now the reason they wouldn't sign off on a mix without hearing them through the NS-10's, beacause they wanted to make sure that a good mix on good speakers sounded good on the average americans' crappy speakers. That's who the hits are sold to. Not the musical coniseours like myself.
I'm sorry that I have a good set of speakers from
SP Technology and I am now spoiled by the imaging, flat response, and lack of coloration they deliver to me. Despite that fact, they play loud as hell without distorting. I spend much more time listening to music that is recorded with excellent skill, as opposed to music that I like, it is much like getting a concert for free.
But that is ok if you guys are going cheap. I went cheap for a LONG time. But I will never go back, and noone can convince me of it cause I have heard it, I hear it every night. Now I don't have to translate my mixes, they always sound good whereever I go, and It saves me an immense amount of time.
But, if your use to getting your ass beat, I guess it feels ok after awhile, cause your used to it. If your used to getting beat over the head with a beer bottle, I guess you feel dissapointed if you don't.
Being used to system that sounds like shit, dosn't make it better just cause your used to it.
Just like your computer, every couple years you gotta upgrade!
If there was one area I would recommend putting most of your money, it would be in th flatest mics, and monitors I could find a good sound card can't hurt either, with good signal to noise ratio(good luck finding a frequency response though). The Timepieces were the flattest I found, and I thought I would recommend them to others.
And now I reisign myself from such uninformed discussions, since you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
To be realistic to my own standards today, they sounded like crap, but they were better than the radio shack crap that I could afford, and so..... I did my reasearch. It was alot easier to learn than it was to spend money. I learned how to translate mixes by trial and error and learned that I obviously wasn't doing something right, but I kept on mixing, I kept on playing, and I know play 7 instruments fluently and have even built my own tube preamp for my guitar.
Now I mix for a local television station and work on commercials and run camera for the news at 5:00 5:30 and 6:00. I also own my own studio packed with equipment that I don't need to mention, but I obviously don't know anything at all (sounds like dog shit I know).
I had to learn the hard way, and after fifteen years of working in the field, I thought I could help some people circumvent alot of waisted time and frustration with the years of experience and knowledge I have obtained, but everyone knows it all.
Now I wouldn't say that most hit records were mixed on crappy monitors because they were flat, I would say they were mixed on crappy speakers because the average person HAS crappy speakers. If the song sounds decent on YOUR crappy speakers, that it probably sounds descent on THEIR crappy speakers.
Especially if you are mixing electronic music like rap, hip hop, or industrial. If that's what your mixing, than that is ok. You are not trying to reproduce reality, you are sttempting to create an image that is in your mind, and THAT is VERY subjective. Now if you are mixing, Jazz, Classical, Acoustic, or Live performances, the idea is to try and give it justice. Not make it sound how YOU Think it should sound.
Now the reason they wouldn't sign off on a mix without hearing them through the NS-10's, beacause they wanted to make sure that a good mix on good speakers sounded good on the average americans' crappy speakers. That's who the hits are sold to. Not the musical coniseours like myself.
I'm sorry that I have a good set of speakers from
SP Technology and I am now spoiled by the imaging, flat response, and lack of coloration they deliver to me. Despite that fact, they play loud as hell without distorting. I spend much more time listening to music that is recorded with excellent skill, as opposed to music that I like, it is much like getting a concert for free.
But that is ok if you guys are going cheap. I went cheap for a LONG time. But I will never go back, and noone can convince me of it cause I have heard it, I hear it every night. Now I don't have to translate my mixes, they always sound good whereever I go, and It saves me an immense amount of time.
But, if your use to getting your ass beat, I guess it feels ok after awhile, cause your used to it. If your used to getting beat over the head with a beer bottle, I guess you feel dissapointed if you don't.
Being used to system that sounds like shit, dosn't make it better just cause your used to it.
Just like your computer, every couple years you gotta upgrade!
If there was one area I would recommend putting most of your money, it would be in th flatest mics, and monitors I could find a good sound card can't hurt either, with good signal to noise ratio(good luck finding a frequency response though). The Timepieces were the flattest I found, and I thought I would recommend them to others.
And now I reisign myself from such uninformed discussions, since you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Gunther said:
If my ears are unusually sensitive to a particular frequency range, let's say 500hz again for argument sake . . . chances are I will be the guy who cranks both the treble and bass knobs on his stereo up so as to de-emphasize the lower-mids.
I'll also be the guy who complains that the majority of the records out there sound mushy and indestinct. I will probably have a penchant for overly crunchy-sounding guitars, and should I take up mixing, most of my stuff will likely sound harsh and shallow, as if there's a big hole in it.
Very similar things might happen if your room or your monitors have a similar peak . . . only those you can actually do something about without surgery or corrective hearing devices.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
You are one pretentious son-of-a-bitch....... and it's been my experience that morons like you tend to know the LEAST about anything....jfreeman373 said:
good riddance......... schmuck........
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jfreeman373
New member
Read the posts! I never said that I worked at guitar center, that was zallen25. What a joke. They must make something like a whole 10 bucks an hour.
I run my own studio,design acoustic spaces like churches, and I also work for the news.
Go fuck yourself you Blue bear....blue ball piece a repeatin dog shit. You lost, you loose... you continue to lose. Why? Your'e a loser, you know nothing.... Period.
Well pretentious I may be... but my mother is not a bitch.
I run my own studio,design acoustic spaces like churches, and I also work for the news.
Blue Bear Sound said:
Go fuck yourself you Blue bear....blue ball piece a repeatin dog shit. You lost, you loose... you continue to lose. Why? Your'e a loser, you know nothing.... Period.
Well pretentious I may be... but my mother is not a bitch.
Man, your low Jfreeman. Blue bear is awesome and extremely helpful... and not afraid to call peoples BS. I am glad to have pros like him on this board to keep people in check.
Anyway, dont put down working at Guitar Center. Honest work is honest work, I dont care if your the CEO of Microsoft or the Janitor of Mc Donalds.. everyone who works deserves respect for paying their own way and adding to society.
Anyway, dont put down working at Guitar Center. Honest work is honest work, I dont care if your the CEO of Microsoft or the Janitor of Mc Donalds.. everyone who works deserves respect for paying their own way and adding to society.
jfreeman373
New member
JFreeman, we are all very happy for you that you have the worlds best sounding monitors, but how is it that you got them stuck so far up your ass? If the world was as flat as you seem to think it is, then we'd all be singing through earthworks mics instead of those crappy Neumans. Someone once said "there's lies, there's damn lies, and then there's specs. I don't doubt that those are excellent monitors, but frequency response curves and such specs just don't tell the story. A spectrum analysis would come close, but the ear is the best measurement device for this decision.
I've always said that getting a pair of monitors is like getting a pair of glasses, get the ones that fit you and your ears. Music is, after all, art, and we all percieve it in different ways. It's that perception that make one set of monitors better for me, and that set that's lodged firmly against your colon the best set for you.
RD
I've always said that getting a pair of monitors is like getting a pair of glasses, get the ones that fit you and your ears. Music is, after all, art, and we all percieve it in different ways. It's that perception that make one set of monitors better for me, and that set that's lodged firmly against your colon the best set for you.
RD
for someone who was supposed to be gracing us with your absence, you seem to really enjoy long goodbyes...
maybe you should just ASK a top engineer why they use/like NS-10m's instead of just presenting your unresearched hypotheses as the gospel.
i don't think you would have engendered anywhere near the negativity that you did, if you hadn't tried to make absolute blanket statements that fly in the face of recorded history while exhibiting an acute superiority complex.
even sweetnubs shows more communications skills than you, which is saying quite a bit.
actually, i wouldn't be one who would suggest you leave. (That was your own idea). You may well have interesting things to contribute. You just need to work on your personality.
maybe you should just ASK a top engineer why they use/like NS-10m's instead of just presenting your unresearched hypotheses as the gospel.
i don't think you would have engendered anywhere near the negativity that you did, if you hadn't tried to make absolute blanket statements that fly in the face of recorded history while exhibiting an acute superiority complex.
even sweetnubs shows more communications skills than you, which is saying quite a bit.
actually, i wouldn't be one who would suggest you leave. (That was your own idea). You may well have interesting things to contribute. You just need to work on your personality.
Light
New member
Re: Monitor selection
Bulls__t. Good monitors can make things easier, but as long as they are fairly decent, and they do not fatigue your ears, it really doesn’t matter what your monitors sound like. What different people want out of monitors is very subjective. I used to use NS-10s, and the only reason I changed is I got sick of having a headache after two hours on a mix. Now I am using Mackies. I am happy with them. Many other engineers can’t stand them. We all get good (some people even get great) results. The monitors are not responsible for the quality of our mixes. Our ears and our experience are.
What matters is that you KNOW what your monitors sound like, and that you think about it enough to compensate for whatever failings they have. Learning this takes time. You must listen to material you are familiar with on your monitors, and compare how it sounds on other systems. You must also listen to mixes you have done on your monitors on other systems, and compare the differences between your system and other systems. This lets you know what you need to be aware of.
Get the best monitors you can afford, and make sure your ears don’t get tired after listening to them for 10 hours straight. After that, spend 6 months to a year getting used to them. Then DO NOT CHANGE without good reason. Many engineers carry their own monitors around, simply because they are used to them. If I did any more work in big studios, I would do so. When I used NS-10s, I did not need to, but not everybody has Mackie 824s.
Light
“Cowards can never be moral.”
M.K. Gandhi
jfreeman373 said:
Bulls__t. Good monitors can make things easier, but as long as they are fairly decent, and they do not fatigue your ears, it really doesn’t matter what your monitors sound like. What different people want out of monitors is very subjective. I used to use NS-10s, and the only reason I changed is I got sick of having a headache after two hours on a mix. Now I am using Mackies. I am happy with them. Many other engineers can’t stand them. We all get good (some people even get great) results. The monitors are not responsible for the quality of our mixes. Our ears and our experience are.
What matters is that you KNOW what your monitors sound like, and that you think about it enough to compensate for whatever failings they have. Learning this takes time. You must listen to material you are familiar with on your monitors, and compare how it sounds on other systems. You must also listen to mixes you have done on your monitors on other systems, and compare the differences between your system and other systems. This lets you know what you need to be aware of.
Get the best monitors you can afford, and make sure your ears don’t get tired after listening to them for 10 hours straight. After that, spend 6 months to a year getting used to them. Then DO NOT CHANGE without good reason. Many engineers carry their own monitors around, simply because they are used to them. If I did any more work in big studios, I would do so. When I used NS-10s, I did not need to, but not everybody has Mackie 824s.
Light
“Cowards can never be moral.”
M.K. Gandhi
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Light
New member
jfreeman373 said:
Mann are you picking on the wrong board member for this one. Learn how to read before you start insulting someones skills. Blue Bear is one of the most respected guys on the board, and for good reason.
It is best for a rabit not to pick a fight with a bear, man.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
New member
littledog said:
Well, I sure would never call myself a "top engineer". All I ever did was make jingles and internal corporate video crap. (I decided to leave the day I heard a brand manager say "That's great, it won't offend anyone." like that was a good thing).
What I can say is that the only reason I used NS-10s was because they were the one speaker which was in every single studio I ever went into, so I spec’ed them if I was going into a studio where there were other choices, because I knew what I would be hearing. It took me years before I realized it was the speakers giving me the headache.
The short answer, which is contained in all that crap I always have to write, is:
I used them because I was familiar with them, so I could always get a good mix with them.
I probably still could get a good mix with them, but I am just happy I don't have to try.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
jfreeman373 said:
Say, I run my own studio, too. And I still don't know shit from shinola.
I've never designed a church before, but I've designed a web site as well as the page layout on a magazine once. Both were pretty mediocre designes, I'll admit. I also used to do news and weather at a small-market radio station. Shit, that makes me just about as smart as you. I must be a freakin' genius.