good 80's/90's analog consoles/mixers.

[RFR]

That style of music is not what i do so i can't prove anything to you.

Besides i record to tape, then go into protools to do digital shit, then back out to the console to do final mixes.

I'm hybrid.

But i can say this. Every era has it's own sound and production techniques and 'how' it is done is as important as 'what it is done on.

I could offer the same challenge

Prove to me you could get that sound you're looking for with whatever analog gear you intend on getting.

You can give a man all the best car repair tools in the world. It doesn't guarantee he'll be a great mechanic.

 

[Simppu]

That style of music is not what i do so i can't prove anything to you.

Besides i record to tape, then go into protools to do digital shit, then back out to the console to do final mixes.

I'm hybrid.

But i can say this. Every era has it's own sound and production techniques and 'how' it is done is as important as 'what it is done on.

I could offer the same challenge

Prove to me you could get that sound you're looking for with whatever analog gear you intend on getting.

You can give a man all the best car repair tools in the world. It doesn't guarantee he'll be a great mechanic.

It's just that some people claim that you get the same sound by going ITB and i've yet to see someone actually put it in practice. So it's kinda hard for Me to believe that you can get the same sound with laptop.

Exactly i think i mentioned somewhere in this thread that production and recording technique has an impact on the sound too so i agree with that.

Challenge accepted, i'll be surely posting My material on the interwebs when i get something done.

 

[RFR]

Can't wait.

Back to consoles Trident is good stuff. Some are not too big either.
I can't post a link from my phone, but check out the youtube channel for "Ultimate studios inc."

There's some videos in there of the trident console. Nice stuff. That would be more than plenty for a 24 track machine

Miro has a newly purchased Trident as well . He has a thread up in the analog forum

Check it out.

Oh, and welcome to the analog section of the forum. Great place to be.


Ps. Nice chatting with you and merry Christmas!

 

[miroslav]

I think i'm going to be sceptical about getting that sound by going ITB unless someone shows me something that proofs it. I don't wanna end up like some of the bands that try to mimic the sound and fail miserably in it, like this:

The music in the two videos you are comparing has little to nothing to do with any "analog vintage sound" or the type of format (tape or digital) it was recorded to. It has everything to do with production techniques and goals.

No hard feelings...but for someone who has not done any recording, to have strong views on what equipment is needed and what's going to yield a certain kind of sound...well, that's based more on your imagination and on not doing enough research...than it is on reality. You're just making assumptions about digital and about analog...and I know, much of that is coming from the "analog/tape is cool" mentality that so many newbies get into these days.
Not saying analog/tape isn't cool...but you're understanding about it and digital recording is coming from....where exactly???

Most of the guys here have been doing this for awhile now, both analog and digital...so if you want to be skeptical about what people are telling you, that's your choice...but don't expect anyone to "prove" anything to you, because you seem to have it in your head what it is that equals and makes "vintage analog sound", and the best thing is for you to find out for yourself the hard way.
Make your mistakes, do the wrong things, buy the wrong equipment...and I can guarantee, you will waste more time and money, and still not have the sound you want, than if you listen to what people tell you...but maybe that's the best way for you to go at this. That way you will not feel like you missed out on anything.

Buy the tape deck...buy the console...do whatever your recording experience tells you is the right thing to do.

 

[Alton42]

I can recommend my old standby, the Behringer PMH5000 16 channel mixer/amp.

 

[Farview]

That vixen album has electronic drums. They used an old D-Drum module, like a lot of the stuff that had this sound.

As someone who has done both analog and digital production since the 80's, the difference in sound between now and then is the production style, not the equipment.

In the 80's, especially the hair metal Era, the vocals weren't mixed way up front compared to how things are mixed now. The rhythm guitars weren't always doubled, especially in a band with only one guitarist. The guitars had a nasaly midrange sound, and the bass was brighter and didn't have a ton of sub low end.

Some of these production decisions were the style of the times, some were to accommodate the limitations of tape and vinyl.

But you do have to consider that the recording budgets were huge at that time. In that Era, the slick sounding stuff was probably mixed on an ssl, a console that could cost into the millions. None of the budget mixers you are looking at can come anywhere close to that sound.
Two inch tape at 30ips is much different sounding than smaller formats.
The stuff was recorded with the best mics, through the best preamps (neve, apiece, etc...) by people who trained in the studio system, in rooms specifically designed for recording.

Low to mid level gear in a spare room isn't going to get the same effect. And speaking of effects, you will need a ton of outboard effects. You will need a physical compressor for each channel you want to compress, and a reverb/multi-effects unit for each effect that you need to have concurrently.

Meanwhile, since you are starting out, you could get an interface, a few mics and some plugins and learn how to capture sounds, before you decide that analog is the way to go. No matter what, the mics will still be useful when you go analog, the interface will still be useful for mixing down to the computer, and burning cds, and the experience will translate.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

It's just that some people claim that you get the same sound by going ITB and i've yet to see someone actually put it in practice. So it's kinda hard for Me to believe that you can get the same sound with laptop.

The gear from those days has aged. Even if you can find the exact same console, it will sound different.

Most of what you want can be had by mimicking the sources (amps, drums etc.), mic selection and placement, tracking techniques (guitar and vocal doubling), mix techniques (compression style, saturation, effects) and things like that.

I have a Sony TC-388-4 sitting next to me. I bought a Tascam 302 the other day. I'm quite familiar with analog gear, but these days I just use them to transfer analog to digital. For new work it's all ITB, and yet I somehow managed to fool a decent mastering engineer into thinking one of my mixes was done in analog, probably because I gravitate to that sound when the material allows. Modern tools are very flexible and should be able to get you where you want to go. A lot of that "analog sound" is from things other than the console and tape deck.

 

[Simppu]

A lot of boasting about that you can get the same sound via ITB but still no one has showed any physical evidence to back that up.

Look, it doesn't matter how much you know or how long you have done this. Unless you can't show any proof for your claims, i don't have any reasons to believe them.

About wasting money, if the ITB proves out not to get the sound that i want. Well, there goes the money for the interface, plugins, daw etc. And i wouldn't do anything anymore via ITB so that's not the case here.

And i wouldn't say that it's about analog vs digital, even some old digital equipment can sound nice like otari radar etc. It's more about old equipment versus ITB, interface and plugins. Also what makes me trust less the whole ITB plugin crap is that some people seem to think that they can get the same sound with a kemper, pod or axe fx or plugins than what my mesa boogie has and all the efforts that i've seen so far have been BS.



And like i've said before, the equipment from that era will still get me closer to that sound than some plugins that all these wannabe bands are using. And some bands are actually trying to mimic the techniques already and still they don't sound like the real thing, a good example here:



But yeah, i guess it is just My imagination still even i've actually showed an example for My claims but yeah, i guess i Will learn the hard way. :^)

 

[DM60]

Simppu, just so you are clear. No one is trying to talk you out of anything. Everyone on here is trying to help you get to your goal. What they are trying to do is help you to avoid as many mistakes as possible. So, they are not arguing against you, but for you. Try to take it in that vain and not that they are here to make you feel foolish.

With that said, the main focus will be as much about capturing the sound, from equipment to room, that will have as much effect at the equipment being used. If you want to reduce your mistake, start with the digital, get your room, amps and mics setup (that alone will cost some money), once you have a decent sound at the source, then go analog for the final. Even if you have all of the analog equipment you want, there is still much to learn about tracking, micing, mixing, etc. Digital is much more forgiving as you're learning than analog.

Just friendly thoughts from everyone on the board.

 

[Farview]

If I get a chance over the next couple days, I will see if I have anything that I can post. I only recorded other people's music, so I can't just post anything I want. Also, no one in the last 15 years has asked me to mix something to sound like 80's hair metal. So essentially, I'm looking for a project that I can remix to sound like that and won't get sued for posting an alternative mix...

Obviously, all the stuff I did in the 80's was on tape and done in a multi-million dollar studio, so pointing to that won't prove anything to you.

But, if you listen to your examples, they don't have a singular sound, they just have a common mixing style. The guitars are small and nasally, almost nothing below 150hz, and not a big stereo spread. The vocals are WAY up front, like most pop music. The bass has no sub. The drums have a ton of big reverb on them. (in the case of Vixen and probably Frontline, a D-Drum drum module was either used exclusively, or mixed with the real sound of the drums)

The frontline lead guitar sound reeks of the ADA processors that a lot of people were using at the time.

Unless you are using a MarkV and wanting to sound like Styper, you might need to trade it in for a Marshall JCM800, since that is what your example bands were most likely using. A dual rectifier has a different type of distortion, and doesn't make that same type of midrange that you seem to like.

 

[Simppu]

Simppu, just so you are clear. No one is trying to talk you out of anything. Everyone on here is trying to help you get to your goal. What they are trying to do is help you to avoid as many mistakes as possible. So, they are not arguing against you, but for you. Try to take it in that vain and not that they are here to make you feel foolish.

With that said, the main focus will be as much about capturing the sound, from equipment to room, that will have as much effect at the equipment being used. If you want to reduce your mistake, start with the digital, get your room, amps and mics setup (that alone will cost some money), once you have a decent sound at the source, then go analog for the final. Even if you have all of the analog equipment you want, there is still much to learn about tracking, micing, mixing, etc. Digital is much more forgiving as you're learning than analog.

Just friendly thoughts from everyone on the board.

Maybe everyone here is trying to help me get to my goal but the problem is that they don't have anything to proof their points so i'm entitled not to trust them. And i'm not being offended or trying to retaliate or anything but i'm just being realistic here and i'm that kind of a person that i don't believe something until i witness it myself or someone shows me a good evidence of it. No hard feelings from here either.

Also, otari radar is the only Digital system that i've considered as it is from that era too and a lot of people have given good reviews about that. But if i have the money to go straight to analog without the need to go digital first, why should i even bother with the digital? And if i want to learn to produce and mix, i rather do it right away with the equipment that i'm going to stick with a long time so i don't need to learn everything again when i go analog or worse, waste money again.

Also Digital being more forgiving, Michael Wagener in this video likes to disagree with you from 2:23 to 2:39:

If I get a chance over the next couple days, I will see if I have anything that I can post. I only recorded other people's music, so I can't just post anything I want. Also, no one in the last 15 years has asked me to mix something to sound like 80's hair metal. So essentially, I'm looking for a project that I can remix to sound like that and won't get sued for posting an alternative mix...

Obviously, all the stuff I did in the 80's was on tape and done in a multi-million dollar studio, so pointing to that won't prove anything to you.

But, if you listen to your examples, they don't have a singular sound, they just have a common mixing style. The guitars are small and nasally, almost nothing below 150hz, and not a big stereo spread. The vocals are WAY up front, like most pop music. The bass has no sub. The drums have a ton of big reverb on them. (in the case of Vixen and probably Frontline, a D-Drum drum module was either used exclusively, or mixed with the real sound of the drums)

The frontline lead guitar sound reeks of the ADA processors that a lot of people were using at the time.

Unless you are using a MarkV and wanting to sound like Styper, you might need to trade it in for a Marshall JCM800, since that is what your example bands were most likely using. A dual rectifier has a different type of distortion, and doesn't make that same type of midrange that you seem to like.

Sure, feel free to post something that would convince me.

Well, if it's really the "common mixing style" and "singular sound" then explain the Enforcer video that i posted in my last post.

About the drums, i'm well aware that a lot of sampled drum sounds were blended with real drums, that's why i'm actually using superior drummer myself and also because it is the only plugin that really has convinced me, a big thumbs up to the guys @ toontrack for creating a such a masterpiece! Superior Drummer also let's you do some unnatural things that you could not do with real drums which i absolutely love.

A-DA MP-1 is the thing that you're probably talking about, great piece of equipment. I've actually thought that can you use that thing as an effects processor only if you have a tube amp already?

And i'm not using Dual Rectifier, i'm using Mesa Mark III Blue Stripe from 1988 and man, that sound is the best in the world, it gives exactly the sound that i want so i'm sticking with that. I would actually go as far and say that it is a old school Marshall on steroids. John Sykes used a Colissium version of that amp in the 80's btw and john sykes' guitar sound, out of this world. So yeah, my amp has the midrange that i desire for.

 

[miroslav]

Also, no one in the last 15 years has asked me to mix something to sound like 80's hair metal.

Well that's the thing...no one is or has been doing Hair Metal for a long time now (thank god ), but that doesn't *prove* you can't do Hair Metal with an ITB setup.
They are doing many other styles of music that REALLY have that "vintage analog" sound", all done ITB...so Hair Metal isn't much of a challenge, AFA getting that sound.

Anyone that understands recording and has some experience at it, would know that...everyone else can choose to be skeptical and follow whatever path their limited understanding leads them to.

Point is...people here who know, are trying to point out the right path...but it makes no difference to us what path the skeptics take.

Oh...they didn't have Superior Drummer back in the '80s...so that's already departing from how they got that "vintage analog sound".

 

[Simppu]

Well that's the thing...no one is or has been doing Hair Metal for a long time now (thank god ), but that doesn't *prove* you can't do Hair Metal with an ITB setup.
They are doing many other styles of music that REALLY have that "vintage analog" sound", all done ITB...so Hair Metal isn't much of a challenge, AFA getting that sound.

Anyone that understands recording and has some experience at it, would know that...everyone else can choose to be skeptical and follow whatever path their limited understanding leads them to.

Point is...people here who know, are trying to point out the right path...but it makes no difference to us what path the skeptics take.

Oh...they didn't have Superior Drummer back in the '80s...so that's already departing from how they got that "vintage analog sound".

If it's possible to get that sound with ITB, then why no one has done it? Kinda hard to trust just words if you don't see the claim in practice all by yourself.

And talking about limited understanding, criticizing claims that don't have any proof behind them is actually opposite to limited understanding, only simple people would take someone's word for granted on the internet. :^)

And i'm happy that it doesn't, because i'm surely not going to go ITB unless someone shows me evidence that the same sound can be had with that.

They didn't have superior drummer, but they still used a lot of drum samples back then, like someone mentioned the d-drum here. Also Superior Drummer has a sound that actually is good enough for me and i'm confident that i can pull the sound with it.

Lastly Dave Pickell used Stylus plugin for drums in this song back in 1992:

 

[RFR]

No point in aurguing with those that are trying to help you.

Unless you got millions to spend on 80's /90's gear, can pull off a big studio room, got some years to get the experience it aint gonna happen.
You're not going to get that sound. Period.

You may come close in your house/apartment but it will never sound like those records done in multi million dollar studios, done with skilled producers/engineers and that production/mixing mindset.

You already stated that you'll be doing it as a solo artist.

No offense, but you have a loooong road ahead of you.

Modern technology will help get you there faster. No one here has to prove anything to you.

Don't get me wrong, I love analog, but unless you are rich, young, and got lots of time to hone your skills, It's going to be tough to pull off

 

[Simppu]

No point in aurguing with those that are trying to help you.

Unless you got millions to spend on 80's /90's gear, can pull off a big studio room, got some years to get the experience it aint gonna happen.
You're not going to get that sound. Period.

You may come close in your house/apartment but it will never sound like those records done in multi million dollar studios, done with skilled producers/engineers and that production/mixing mindset.

You already stated that you'll be doing it as a solo artist.

No offense, but you have a loooong road ahead of you.

Modern technology will help get you there faster. No one here has to prove anything to you.

Don't get me wrong, I love analog, but unless you are rich, young, and got lots of time to hone your skills, It's going to be tough to pull off

You don't have to prove anything to me, but you expect me to believe when you say that i won't get the sound unless i take your road if you can't even show any evidence? Sorry but no.

I've stated million times in this thread that yeah, it might not sound exactly the same but i will get closer to that sound with gear from that era than with your useless ITB.

And exactly, i have a long road ahead of me as i'm young still, but it's gonna be a good one as long as i just don't listen some random guys giving me info that they can't even prove.

Modern technology might get me record stuff faster and be an easier solution but it would stop as fast as i got into it when my mixes sound like the Enforcer or Battle Beast. :---D

Sometimes you gotta take the hard solution in order to reach your goals. I think the sole reason for the bad sound of nowadays is the ITB and plugin crap that people use just to get their shit done easier, but at the price of the sound. That's how life works.

I don't need people to believe in me that i won't reach my goals with the road that i'm about to take because i'm pretty confident that i will reach the sound that i want when i do it my way.

...Period :^)

 

[RFR]

As stated earlier analog is a comittment.

If you've got the money, the time and the chops go for it.

But you are starting to sound a bit dickish with a bit too much of the 'we're all out to stop you' mentality.

Go for it, and good luck.

 

[miroslav]

They didn't have superior drummer, but they still used a lot of drum samples back then, like someone mentioned the d-drum here. Also Superior Drummer has a sound that actually is good enough for me and i'm confident that i can pull the sound with it.

So then you (the guy who has zero experience with recording), are going to make it up as you go along, with whatever you think it will take to get that sound...and we (the guys who actually have experience with recording) need to provide proof to show we know what we are talking about....???



Listen...I've got more analog gear than most guys these days would bother with, because they can do a lot of it with software..so I'm not some ITB fanatic or anything like that....and because I have that gear, and because I also do ITB...I can tell you that if I was going to do Hair Metal, the last thing on my mind would be the need for tape decks and consoles....and I say that even though I have those things.

You want proof that smooth, vintage sounding music can be done ITB...well then turn on the radio!
These days everything you hear has probably been done mostly if not all ITB, and no hard feelings, but Hair Metal doesn't really raise the bar on any kind of "vintage analog sound" quality. If anything, it was probably the absolute worst example of "vintage analog sound" at the time. Heck...the Grunge styles that followed had more of that vintage analog sound quality.
There's also a lot of current Indie music that pulls mostly from the '60s/'70s, when analog was king...and it's being done ITB.

What everyone here is explaining to you (the skeptic with zero recording experience) is that you will waste your money and time, with some half-assed analog tape setup, getting it properly aligned and working, learning how to use it...and then realizing that it's going to take a lot more than that to get the sound you want.
You need to focus on production techniques for Hair Metal, learn basic recording skills...and for the money you have, you will be best served by going ITB for the mixing. Spend the money on some nice preamps and mics...right there is a lot of your "sound"...then add a decent interface and spend the rest on a DAW setup and plugs.

Even though you say you haven't done any recording...you obviously already have some kind of DAW setup, since you have Superior Drummer. So I'm getting the feeling that you are struggling with that, and you think the solution is to get a tape deck and a console....and you are not the first person to think that....but tape decks and console bring with them their own learning curves and issues.
It's about knowing HOW to use your equipment and not so much the equipment...and that goes equally for analog/tape and ITB...and both can be used to get whatever sounds you want.

TBH...as much as I love analog and tape...I can't deny that an ITB rig is WAY more flexible and provides endless possibilities, so you really CAN do just about anything with it. It would take a LOT of $$$ to stock an analog studio with that same kind of flexibility and options. Besides, you don't have the budget for the analog gear of that era...not even close.
All you will get is something that you "think" is the right analog gear.

The "proof" here is that we (the guys who have recording experience) know what we are talking about and telling you (the guy with little to none).
You can decide to accept it or reject it...and then go find your own path and solutions.

 

[DM60]

You don't have to prove anything to me, but you expect me to believe when you say that i won't get the sound unless i take your road if you can't even show any evidence? Sorry but no.

Don't believe, you are correct! You must make your own path 99.9% on this board believes that. But do take what has been said here under advisement. That is really what everyone is saying.

 

[miroslav]

Don't believe, you are correct! You must make your own path 99.9% on this board believes that. But do take what has been said here under advisement. That is really what everyone is saying.

Well, the sun will come up tomorrow...but no one has to believe that either, they can wait for it.

I actually like the guys who want to do it all by trial and error, on their own...rather than just show up here asking for someone to tell them what to do. A lot of us did it that way...before there was an internet...
...but few guys these days are up for that, not to mention, it can be a costly path.

The smart guys know how to reap the experience of others, but if they are going to be skeptical about everything...then they can do it the hard way, with trial and error and $$$.

 

[Simppu]

As stated earlier analog is a comittment.

If you've got the money, the time and the chops go for it.

But you are starting to sound a bit dickish with a bit too much of the 'we're all out to stop you' mentality.

Go for it, and good luck.

You made your bed now lay in it. I think i made it 1000x clear that i'm not going to take your advices and in the end you started to discourage me that i won't get the sound unless i take the way that you're suggesting. No wonder that i might sound a bit dick towards you, right? D:

So then you (the guy who has zero experience with recording), are going to make it up as you go along, with whatever you think it will take to get that sound...and we (the guys who actually have experience with recording) need to provide proof to show we know what we are talking about....???



Listen...I've got more analog gear than most guys these days would bother with, because they can do a lot of it with software..so I'm not some ITB fanatic or anything like that....and because I have that gear, and because I also do ITB...I can tell you that if I was going to do Hair Metal, the last thing on my mind would be the need for tape decks and consoles....and I say that even though I have those things.

You want proof that smooth, vintage sounding music can be done ITB...well then turn on the radio!
These days everything you hear has probably been done mostly if not all ITB, and no hard feelings, but Hair Metal doesn't really raise the bar on any kind of "vintage analog sound" quality. If anything, it was probably the absolute worst example of "vintage analog sound" at the time. Heck...the Grunge styles that followed had more of that vintage analog sound quality.
There's also a lot of current Indie music that pulls mostly from the '60s/'70s, when analog was king...and it's being done ITB.

What everyone here is explaining to you (the skeptic with zero recording experience) is that you will waste your money and time, with some half-assed analog tape setup, getting it properly aligned and working, learning how to use it...and then realizing that it's going to take a lot more than that to get the sound you want.
You need to focus on production techniques for Hair Metal, learn basic recording skills...and for the money you have, you will be best served by going ITB for the mixing. Spend the money on some nice preamps and mics...right there is a lot of your "sound"...then add a decent interface and spend the rest on a DAW setup and plugs.

Even though you say you haven't done any recording...you obviously already have some kind of DAW setup, since you have Superior Drummer. So I'm getting the feeling that you are struggling with that, and you think the solution is to get a tape deck and a console....and you are not the first person to think that....but tape decks and console bring with them their own learning curves and issues.
It's about knowing HOW to use your equipment and not so much the equipment...and that goes equally for analog/tape and ITB...and both can be used to get whatever sounds you want.

TBH...as much as I love analog and tape...I can't deny that an ITB rig is WAY more flexible and provides endless possibilities, so you really CAN do just about anything with it. It would take a LOT of $$$ to stock an analog studio with that same kind of flexibility and options. Besides, you don't have the budget for the analog gear of that era...not even close.
All you will get is something that you "think" is the right analog gear.

The "proof" here is that we (the guys who have recording experience) know what we are talking about and telling you (the guy with little to none).
You can decide to accept it or reject it...and then go find your own path and solutions.

Like i said before, your experience, gear and knowledge doesn't mean shit to me unless you can prove your statements.

And if Hair Metal is the last thing you need the older gear for, then why no one has made that with ITB? Also the only half-assed thing here is the indie bands that you're referring that are trying to pull the 60's and 70's sound and what i've listened em, they don't sound anything like the actual bands from that era.

My budget for the console only is the 1000-3000€, i can spend the same amount of money for mics, preamps and other shit that i need along the tape deck and the console, even if it takes some time it'll be worth it, and if they really have a big learning curve, then i think it is better to jump right away in that train that fiddling with a fucking ITB that some David Quetta is using and end up sounding like Battle Beast.

ITB is more flexible and offers solutions, but at the cost of the sound, that's why i despise it and unless someone shows me a record that sounds good to me, i won't change my mind about it. And yeah i have cubase 5 but i will be using it only to utilize the Superior Drummer as a drum machine, not that i've struggled with it, i've not even tried to produce and record songs to it and probably will not unless someone can really show me something that changes my mind.

The analog gear that i will probably get will still be closer to that sound than the ITB, but i don't need your opinion on that, i rather trust my ears on that.

Sorry, your experience doesn't mean shit to me unless you can show me a physical proof, so i will reject it.

Don't believe, you are correct! You must make your own path 99.9% on this board believes that. But do take what has been said here under advisement. That is really what everyone is saying.

I take only those things as advisement that make sense to me and that can be proved, otherwise i'll ditch it, cope with it.