Going Raw!

Green Gizmo

New member
Tossing aside a lot of the fancy gear and plugins and getting back to that raw sound for the next project.
I have a stack of albums with fake drums, perfectly cut transitions and every effort to take the human element out of music.

Do you think that audio engineers quest for producing the best end result and try to eliminate human element?
Also why do musicians who worked so hard on their skills get into recording and try to do the same thing?

Its not that I miss the days of slicing tape and cleaning tape heads but what you put to tape was human.
 
For the same reason that all cars made now are specifically aerodynamic, ovens are fan assissted, TVs are digital flatscreened and you barely find anyone making cassette recorders etc.
There tends to be this popular myth that "that's how it is now ", that somehow, this is a modern recent thing. It isn't. It's the way we're made and the way we are, for better or for worse. It was in the 1940s that Lester Paul worked on "Sound on sound" recording that developed into multitracking. Many studios of the 50s were using wartime mics and old gear bought cheaply when the war ended and there was little call for the stuff. But even then, there were those that sought to totally eliminate hiss and other noise factors. Part of the rarely mentioned story of recording technology is the quest for near perfection. What we do so seemlessly with digital today is merely an extension of the then manual quest for ease and perfectness. Perfect drums ? Alot of the time the drummers in the band didn't play on records. They got faceless but solid sessionists to do all that. Same with guitars. Engineers were splicing sections of tape and editing together different takes to make a cohesive whole a very long time ago. You'd be amazed at the number of well known songs that are 'put together'. Instruments like the mellotron and synthesizer were said to be the death of music putting real living musicians out of work because of the range of sounds they could achieve. The drum machine was a pariah when it first arrived in the 70s but back then in the good old days of tape and fantastic, inventive drummers, people still wanted metronome rigidity. But no one had been complaining that suddenly drummers were all playing out of time.
The more you take a critical view of the halcyon days, the more it becomes apparent that there are some fundamentals that have not changed.
So coming back to your opening post, it seems to me that at times we come full circle simply because we're human. We get bored being in the same place endlessly. They said disco took the human element out of music. They said it about house, hip hop, industrial, electronica. They said punk was too human, that prog was too cerebral and free jazz too 'out there'. None of today's techniques take the human element out because it's humans that make them and utilize them. If anything, it says bundles about the human race ~ whether for better or worse is everyones' opinion and anyone's call.
 
I agree with a good portion of what you said and I fully support innovation but there are game changers. I think plug n play drummers have helped people have access to quality drum samples and produce music on their own with out investing in a large set up to rec drums. I have been a drummer and guitarist for almost 20 years and I have used my TD-20 kit with drummer superior plenty of times because don't have to do the session in one sitting I can get back to it in a week and its great. But all the things you mentioned still took humans to perform even disco, programming drums that are quantized takes a human to program but its a pretty lifeless performance. Now its bleeding into guitar playing, just program what you want into guitar pro and when it gets as easy as toontrack stuff why even play the guitar? I have been hearing a good amount of bassist being replaced by programs.
So getting back to the point you were making that with all genres of music there was controversy but all involved humans to perform the instruments. But out of all the years of music this is the first time we are seeing the musician being replaced. Creativity is still a key factor in any song but I just feel that the human mechanics is what connects me to music. If I know that the drums were programmed nothing is impressive about the performance.
And all this is coming from a guy who owns a ton of gear, programs and tech :) I just hope the demand for a real drummer and guitarist stays a priority and the innovations support the musician not replace them.
 
Depends on the genre. If you are talking about Nu-Metal then everything is perfectly edited, vocal corrected, compressed etc to hafve a flawless sound where everything is up front in your face.

As for acoustic music this tend to be more natural with subtle compression, etc.

G
 
Tossing aside a lot of the fancy gear and plugins and getting back to that raw sound for the next project.
I have a stack of albums with fake drums, perfectly cut transitions and every effort to take the human element out of music.

Do you think that audio engineers quest for producing the best end result and try to eliminate human element?
Also why do musicians who worked so hard on their skills get into recording and try to do the same thing?

Its not that I miss the days of slicing tape and cleaning tape heads but what you put to tape was human.

You can't use plug-ins and "fancy gear" and still sound human? That's not a production problem, that's a personal problem.
 
And all this is coming from a guy who owns a ton of gear, programs and tech :) I just hope the demand for a real drummer and guitarist stays a priority and the innovations support the musician not replace them.

Sounds to me like the one and only thing you are complaining about is the use of drum samples/loops and how it's making the music "not human/raw" enough.
Well...if you are a drummer, then why are you using the samples/loops...?
Just record your drum playing and keep it "real".

I'm not really understanding what you are "rebelling" at when you argue against using fancy gear and plug-ins?
Maybe I'm not understanding you clearly.....?

How much you edit/program and to what level, it's really up to you. Each style of music allows what it will bear of that.
If you are recording a live bluegrass band, you probably aren't going to reach for drum samples, and guitar sims....but for other types of music, some of those elements work well and contribute to the style's signature sound.
You can't get Techno from a bluegrass band, it's usually programmed and edited to it's wonderful, mechanical and electronic precision and sythetic quality.

I can understand wanting to do things "raw"...sort of "as-it-falls" during recording, but it has to work and it has to sound good. I mean, if there's a sour note or bad drum hit in the 2nd chorus, you need to fix it, one way or another. You can keep practicing/recording until it's perfect, or sometimes you edit/replace...whatever.

I get the feeling that you're subconsciously talking about stuff like live 2-track recording., but for that, you need a band...a really tight-n-good sounding band...and then you can lay it down raw and "as-it-falls". However, for multi-track recording by one person it always takes a bit of effort to make it sound like a whole band and to keep it cohesive and "human", but that's not the responsibility of the gear, but rather the person using it.
Having the best, most advanced gear at your disposal and as your budget permits...should never be a "problem".
You don't have to use all of it...all the time.
 
So getting back to the point you were making that with all genres of music there was controversy but all involved humans to perform the instruments. But out of all the years of music this is the first time we are seeing the musician being replaced.
You know, that's not true. Four quick examples from the last 4 decades of the 20th century.
In the 60s the musicians union tried to get the mellotron banned. The reason ? Fear that this instrument {the first ever sampler, in effect} meant that human musicians were being replaced. Yes, the taped instruments within the mellotron were played by humans, as are many of the samples used now, but when King Crimson, Genesis, the Strawbs, the Kinks and others wanted the sound of an orchestra, they used the mellotron, not needing the services of 120 musicians. The union reacted straight away. They were not happy. The saw the writing on the wall.
In the 70s some of those disco songs {"I feel love", for example} utilized the synthesizer and drum machine in place of bassists and drummers. In point of fact, loops had pointed the way in the early 60s. All that was needed was one measure by a drummer and then loop it. After a while, you didn't even need the measure from the drummer.The seeds had been planted long before today. The band Forever More on their 1971 LP "Words on black plastic" discuss the replacing of people by machines in "What a lovely day". Great song.
Here is a quote from a book I'm sure I got at the very end of 1981 but I definitely remember reading in 1982. It's the producer Mickie Most; "One of the things which I think will help the industry as far as producers and production are concerned, is the aid of the electronic pulse and the devices which will play the instruments for you - it's not going to be long before we won't actually need a musician in the studio. The errors come from musicians and with electronic equipment that's available now, we're using machines for drums which no drummer could ever equal either in sound or technique. And they don't sound sterile because they have as much movement in them as an actual player..........if you feel the song needs to slightly speed up or get more dramatic in the chorus, you can include all that information and it'll do it........I've got every drum sound I want, from Led Zeppelin's to Pink Floyd's to Paul Gadd's and to me it seems that's the way records must go although all the electronics there are won't help if the song's no good."
And from an early 90s interview with Cheap Trick's Robin Zander, when commenting on his sample driven remake of Nilsson's "Jump into the fire" in which the drums and keyboards were programmed, he commented "That was probably the most fun for me because there were no musicians involved".
Hmmmm.
The phenomenon you speak of is not new but it is definitely more widespread. But then, so is the advent of home recording. I probably have driven many people nuts saying this repeatedly over the years but from the moment sound on sound recording entered the game {and bear in mind, this was pretty early on in the game} it became a different game. Les Paul's records became sonic illusions and pretty much everyone has had to follow suit since. Heck, even so called live albums more often than not are not. Why ? Because despite what people often say, the performance is not nearly so important as we are led to believe. Not since the tools to correct 'errors' have existed and they've existed a very long time.
You can't use plug-ins and "fancy gear" and still sound human? That's not a production problem, that's a personal problem.
I actually have alot of affinity with this viewpoint. As I see it, tools are simply that. They're tools. They're neutral. They have parameters that the person using them can set. If it sounds sterile or not human, that's first of all a subjective judgement and secondly, if it is true, then that's due to the user, not some intrinsic quality of the plug or tool.
Personally, I abhor the idea of a machine that plays something for you and replaces musicians. Actually, I can't really conceive of such a thing. Samples and VSTis are different because a person still has to play them, even if a MIDI keyboard is being used. I think that depending on the types of music being played, more and more people will just naturally gravitate to the hybrid set up that looks back in time and here and now simultaneously.
Some of it is also an age and era thing. I'm of the age and ilk whereby guitars, basses and drums will probably always form part of my basic sound. I'm fortunate to know a few drummers. As many acoustic instruments as I can play will remain with me. But I also like the sounds of exotic instruments that I want to utilize but don't have 15 years or the inclination to learn how to play. It is here that technology serves me well.
 
Let me try and sum this up into a less hole filled point. The replacement of the instrument welding musician usually came from new genres like techno, disco used samples and there wasn't much cross over.
But now I see it in all genres, rock, metal jazz, and with the growth of home studios its easier for most to not even use real drums. I'm starting to hear more Virtual guitars pop up and I have to admit they are getting pretty good. Don't get me wrong there is a lot of positives that come from all these innovations but guitarists are finding it easier just to program their own drums and now more bassists are not being used and being replaced by programs.

So let me be clear that I know as a drummer, guitarist and recording enthusiast the musician will not be phased out of playing their instrument but I think their presence on albums will will be greatly diminished.
I know of people who chose to start playing guitar instead of drums because they say "Whats the point I can just program a drummer"
I don't think its the end of music as we know it but just a restructure of the processes.
As programs improve its going to be harder to distinguish the human from the program and that isn't disturbing to anyone? I hear a lot of "I don't know any drummers" excuse, its the internet, you can find anything you want but again its just easier to just program it or there are plenty of drum programmers for hire.

But I do think it will have a major effect in the way home studios impacted professional studios, Yes they will always be around but a lot less of them.
Maybe its a pride thing to have an actually name for the drummer instead of who they were programmed by and a feeling of credibility to the performance on the album.
I'm sure to many people this is not a issue because they just care that it sounds good and with less physical albums people don't even know the names of the musicians so it just really
effects the behind the scenes.
So in the end I'm not bitching but just wondering what the effects will be like the emergence of the home studio.
 
Well...the digital/programmable home studio has been around and pretty affordable for about 20 years now...so you can already see the effects of the home studio....just bounce around the Internet, there's home studio output all over the place.

Sure, some guys use samples here and there or program their drums...but most people still *play* a lot of the stuff, and if anything, I think the home studio environment has motivated people to learn/do/play many more things than they might have done if they were just a player in a band.
You'll find many of the people here play more than instrument and often do all their own vocals.
I don't think that it's gong to come to a point where no one plays anything anymore, and they just program it.
I mean...maybe non-musicians might do that...but it ain't no fun for musicians to never play.

I would say that most of the programming/sampling stuff is happening out of necessity...as not everyone can play everything, and especially when it comes to drums, not many people have the space to set up a drum kit, not to mention, drums are loud even when you play them softly...so that's why drums get "looped/sampled" more than anything else...plus, it takes some skill and a good room to mic/record a drum kit properly...so that's another reason.

These are all tools...how you use them is up to you.
 
miroslav I agree but last time I checked there were not shortages of guitarist and there are a good amount of virtual guitar programs out, acoustic and electric.
I have a electronic kit just for the fact I can practice at any hour and I have used drum and orchestra programs because I do understand the use out of necessity but guitars and bass?
I listen to a lot of metal and I think its hitting this genera pretty fast and every album that comes out its less and less real drummers and now less bassists.
Necessity is defiantly part of it but I think its also just a matter of convenience of why involve someone else when I can do it myself. People invested in home studio for convenience, control, save money and the occasional entrepreneur and I think the same thing applies to the musician & engineer.

Again I think its just impacting the genera of music I prefer more then others right now so I just wanted to put the thought out there.
 
Does it even matter? Is there a mob of VSTi's banging on your door trying to replace you? Your musician sensibilities have been offended. You gotta get over it. We're days away from 2012. Fake everything is the era we live in. There is a solution though - don't listen to anything made after 1980. I understand your point and agree to a small extent, but I personally don't care if some jackoff in his basement uses a bunch of fake shit. I'm not gonna listen to it, definitely not gonna buy it, so it has no bearing on me. And to some extent, you have to give credit to the people that make drum samples and virtual basses sound real. Most people can't. That's almost an art in and of itself. I've long maintained though that the ease and inexpensiveness of home recording has hurt music in general and made people worse players overall, so I get where you're coming from. Most new music being made at the bedroom/studio level is pretty much garbage. Partly because the internet has made it too easy for bedroom rockstars to inundate us with their "art", but also because many young musicians these days have no real musical idols. When their favorite screamo band guitarist talks about using amp modellers and then re-amping everything 17 times, they think that's how you're supposed to do it. We get idiot n00bs in here asking questions about re-amping before they've even tried just mic'ing their amp. It's stupid. They hear 64th note double kicks in perfect time and loudness, and realize that they need EZ Drummer to do that, so they get it. Playing drums is hard, and recording them effectively is harder, so software to the rescue. It's the world we live in. Don't fight it, you can't win. You're a dinosaur. Just do what makes you happy, and wait for the big comet to come along and take you out.
 
This thread is about 30 years late.....:eek:
 
Last edited:
Lots of good points in various threads above. :)

The move away from multiple musicians has been going on for a very long time. I can remember string quartets in some fancy hotel lobbies being replaced by solo pianists, who are now being replaced by player pianos or piped music. Film studio used to have resident musicians - in some cases even orchestras - for soundtracks, whereas now it's often one composer with some nice electronic gear. Pubs and homes had pianos which were replaced by juke boxes and home stereos. And so on...

But I can still pick up my own instruments and play them however and whenever I like. I can also go to the local pub and hear live music several days a week. So I don't care all that much what the pop charts do for their sounds. And is digital musicianship so bad? I recall seeing a guy doing an amazing job of playing a violin concerto on a midi keyboard on youtube. Some negative type posted "why don't you just hire a musician instead?". But what the hell did he think the guy playing the keyboard with such consummate skill was - a bricklayer?

I have a range of tools - some of which are digital and some of which are bits of wood and wire and brass, etc. I don't think it stops being 'music' in any sense at all if I choose to have Band in a Box play a complete song that I've written, while I just sing along, or if I play it on acoustic guitar. Or I might take a path that starts by using a drum machine, then goes to playing on an electronic kit, and finally on real drums. But I might decide that any of them fit the bill for a particular occasion. Currently we have a cheap 'real' drum kit in the family which sounds a fair bit worse than the electronic kit can. But it all seems enjoyable to me.

To me it's the end sound and the message it carries that's the most important thing, rather than the source or the medium. If I've got something wrong then it's usually my fault for misusing the tools.

I thoroughly enjoy the whole business to be honest, whether I'm twanging, banging, blowing or clicking a mouse. Even when the results are pretty dire, the journey is fun.

Cheers,

Chris
 
Last edited:
Does it even matter? Is there a mob of VSTi's banging on your door trying to replace you? Your musician sensibilities have been offended. You gotta get over it. We're days away from 2012. Fake everything is the era we live in. There is a solution though - don't listen to anything made after 1980.

I understand your point and agree to a small extent, but I personally don't care if some jackoff in his basement uses a bunch of fake shit. I'm not gonna listen to it, definitely not gonna buy it, so it has no bearing on me. And to some extent, you have to give credit to the people that make drum samples and virtual basses sound real. Most people can't. That's almost an art in and of itself. I've long maintained though that the ease and inexpensiveness of home recording has hurt music in general and made people worse players overall, so I get where you're coming from.

Most new music being made at the bedroom/studio level is pretty much garbage. Partly because the internet has made it too easy for bedroom rockstars to inundate us with their "art", but also because many young musicians these days have no real musical idols. When their favorite screamo band guitarist talks about using amp modellers and then re-amping everything 17 times, they think that's how you're supposed to do it.

We get idiot n00bs in here asking questions about re-amping before they've even tried just mic'ing their amp. It's stupid. They hear 64th note double kicks in perfect time and loudness, and realize that they need EZ Drummer to do that, so they get it. Playing drums is hard, and recording them effectively is harder, so software to the rescue. It's the world we live in. Don't fight it, you can't win. You're a dinosaur. Just do what makes you happy, and wait for the big comet to come along and take you out.

Greg...
I just got cross-eyed trying to read your post! :p

[SHIFT] [ENTER] or [ENTER] = line-break. ;)

I fixed it for you....but I know, you were on a roll. :D
 
As long as you do line-breaks...you can get a stick and scratch it in the dirt! :D

I know how much you hate writing (and reading) long posts...the line-breaks just don't come naturally for you...
...but I like when you write longer posts, they are usually good ones. :)
 
Back
Top