Getting That Big Drive From a Miked Amp Speaker In A Medium Sized Room. Suggestions??

Mike Freze

New member
Hello! I have a medium-sized basement room for my home recording. I have two different amps set up in there for guitar: a Fender Music Man (twin reverb/tube/single cabinet/2 12" speakers) and a big Crate solid state system (2 cabinets with 4 12" speakers in each). Overkill for a medium room, but here's what I'm attempting to do.

How you get that drive or "push" from an amp speaker for more guts to your guitar recorded tracks without blasting out your own ears or going over that threshhold where the signal clips?? You know, that fairly clean sound of drive/overload/distortion, or whatever you call it. Putting "meat" behind good quality speakers.

Is it better to crank up the amp volume to near max but barely turn up the guitar volume control while doing this? Or full volume on the guitar volume knob and just a bit of volume level on the amp? It only takes a volume setting of 1 or 2 on those amps (they go up to 12) to get pretty loud. But yet that doesn't seem like the drive I'm looking for out of the speakers. Supposedly, you really need to "push" them.

Is it even possible to do without putting your amp in another room and crank it up, use a long cable to lead into your recording room and connect to your interface?

Finally, if you have suggestions on how I could do this, which amp (the tube) or my solid state would you use in a medium-sized room to get the best push without distortion in the signal chain?

Mike Freze
 
Huh?? Say what? You lost me (sorry). Can you be more specific: Less gain where? Guitar, amp, or interface volume control? Layers meaning??

Mike Freze
 
Less gain/distortion/overdrive/saturation/etc on the amp. Layers meaning multiple tracks, layered like a cake. You gotta play well and play tight to make it work. Can you do that?
 
yeah theres that old saying...when you think it sounds perfect, turn the gain down 25%


well it might not be an old saying


in fact it might not be a saying at all


hell where's my beer.....
 
Not trying to sound too much like the tube amp snob that I am, but I wouldn't waste your time with the SS crate amp (ok, I didn't try very hard did I?) Actually, I suspect there are tones that could be had from the crate that you might like, but I've never heard a SS amp that sounded good to me for what I like.

As for what I think you are looking for (and I think I know what you are saying), unfortunately there isn't much in the way of a solution that isn't going to be really loud. I'm interested in Greg's comment about more layers. I think know what he means but I won't try to explain that because I may be wrong and I haven't done it. He's totally right about less gain, though. Typically as guitar players we want to crank that gain knob and get lots of sustain and grunge and so on and so on. Unfortunately when you record that sound it just comes out like mush. What the gain knob is doing is overdriving the preamp tubes. Typically with modern tube amps there is also a master control that let's you turn the signal back down as it heads into the output stage so you get a preamp distortion sound at a reasonable volume. It's not a bad compromise for messing around, or even for live stuff, but when you record it, it just doesn't sound like the real thing... cause it isn't. The kind of distortion that really sounds and feels good (and records well) comes from overdriving the output stage and yes (to some extent) the speakers. With the classic amps from back in the day, there wasn't a gain/master setup. That's because they weren't originally intended to be overdriven at all. The classic distorted sound we know and love came about as guitar players turned these amps up to their max (where the designers never imagined anybody would want them). The result (at least in the amps that became famous) was saturation of the output stage and that warm, "dirty but clean at the same time" kind of distortion that there's really just no other way to get.

What exactly is your amp? You say Fender Music Man... Is it a Fender or a Music Man? I don't know of Music Man as a Fender model, I do know there was a Music Man company that made amps. I think Leo Fender worked for them at one point, so maybe that's what you mean. Anyway, do you know what circuit it's based on? You say twin reverb. I know that as a Fender amp, but maybe there's some connection to Music Man I don't know about. Anyway, the question is whether you have a gain/master setup or not. Could be called drive/master as well, or who knows what else. Whatever it is called, if you have it and you want a really great sound... Put your earplugs in, turn the gain all the way down, crank the master all the way up, plug in and start turning the gain up. The tone will go from painfully bright and clean while its quiet to, clean and punchy as it gets a little louder. At some point as it gets reaaaaallyyy loud, it should start to break up and sound overdriven. Somewhere just into this breakup is where the best tones are going to be, more or less depending on just how distorted you want the sound to be. Just remember it will sound more distorted when you play it back than it did while you were tracking it.

Books have been written on mics and mic placement. I like an SM57 about a foot away from the speaker about a third of the way from the center of the cone to the edge of the speaker. I like the sound better with the amp up off the floor and about 8" away from the wall (I can't say I've actually played with the distance from the wall part, cause about 8" is just what I've done. The other things I have played with all different ways and like this setup best).

I hope there's no max quota on characters here. It seems I tend to ramble a bit. (That's what the scroll bar is for if your eyelids start to droop.)

Now, if your amp doesn't have a gain/master setup (a twin reverb doesn't), you are going to need one more thing: a drive pedal of some sort. The process is the same as above. Crank the amp WAAAAAAAY up, with the pedal waaaaay down. Then bring the pedal output up gradually til you get the crunch you want. Twin reverb is (I think) an 85W amp, so it's going to be un-freaking-believably-loud, but it sounds fantastic (I've never owned a TR, but I played a gig with one once. Very nice amp-chimey and bright, but louuud!!! Very nice tone when driven.) There's loads of debate around what pedal to use. Most pedals are designed to create their own distortion, too, which you don't want much of at all, so use the same process as with the drive/master controls on the amp. Turn the output control of the pedal waaaay up and the drive or gain control waaay down, then turn up the gain knob til you get the loudness of the amp up to where it sounds good. Which pedal you use and tweaking the gain vs output on the pedal can change the character of the sound. That's a taste thing. Stevie Ray Vaughn played TS808. That's a great pedal. I have a Boss OD1 which works well for me (almost the same circuit TS808). People will talk a lot about the OP amps in the pedals, but I think that's a bunch of baloney. Different circuit = different sound, but different chip? nah!

Anyway, last thought. If you try this and like it but worry about raising the dead or having the neighbors call the cops, there are two solutions. First you can buy (or build if you are industrious enough) a power soak. This is a circuit that sits between the amp and the speaker. It loads the amp down exactly like a speaker would, so it let's you operate the amp at high output where the tubes sound good, but then it only passes a fraction of that power to the speaker, so your ears don't bleed, you lose some of the speaker distortion, but that actually peaks at a lower volume than the power stage saturation for most amps, so that's not a bad thing as long as you still get the volume up so the speaker still... speaks:).

The other solution (and my preferred one) is to get a lower powered amp. Clapton recorded with Cream playing 100W marshall amps cranked to the max. He recorded with Derek and the Dominos playing a 5W Fender Champ. It's not about the volume, its about exercising the output tube, transformer and power supply (and having a good speaker - if you look at a Champ or say the Epiphone Valve, Jr., you MUST connect it to a decent cab. Sounds like crap through the built in speaker). I built myself a clone of a 59 Fender Deluxe, with a footswitchable TS808 circuit builtin. It's an 18W amp, so it plays loud enough to gig with, but quiet enough that I can crank it and not strip my eyebrows off. I can't say I recommend the Champ or Epi Valve Jr as anything other than recording amp. I didn't buy one for exactly that reason (although I may build one!).

Last, last thought. Old amps sound great cranked all the way up. They weren't always designed to be operated that way, though, so I take no responsibility should anything go pop... sizzle... bzzzzz. It is very unlikely that it will if it's a decent amp in decent condition, but I just figure I should throw in a little disclaimer on that.

Good luck,
J

PS (He's not done???) - Greg probably means more than this by his layering comment, but at a minimum for a rhythm guitar part, record it twice, played as nearly the same each time as you can. Then pan one left and one right to give the part some width.
 
Hey, jjjtttggg, wow! So much helpful information! Thanks so much. You mentioned the 18W amp. I also have a small Marshall "practice amp" with one 10" speaker. Gets pretty loud when I crank it up (just a $150 amp). It's only 45 watts, has a gain 1 and gain 2 (pre-amp section) and a master knob. line in, line out, countour knob, treble knob, and bass knob. It is one 10" speaker.

Is this too cheap of an amp and speaker to crank up for that "crunch sound" for a medium-sized room for home recording? Certainly can't compete tonality wise with my Fender 2-12" speakers, a tube amp. My Marshall appears to be solid state.

Any thoughts on this? In a small room, will I get a better crunch recording on a smaller amp like this turned way up rather than a better quality Fender tube amp that is 85 watts? Maybe more crunch, but will the quality of sound match up with this small of a speaker?

Mike Freze
 
Or you could ignore all of the idiots and long winded responses and do it the normal way by running an Ibanez tube screamer in front of your Fender amp.
 
Yeah, I blather on. I've stopped apologizing for it. Every web browser has that scroll bar on the right hand side. It's available 24/7...

Regarding your question. I wouldn't say the Marshall practice amp is "too cheap", and it really depends on what kind of tone you're looking for, but personally, I'd stick with the Fender amp and play it loud. I guess ocnor very nicely boiled down my recommendation to a single sentence. The TS808 I mentioned is the original version of the Ibanez Tube Screamer that SRV made famous, so yeah, "tube screamer in front of your Fender" is perfect . . . a classic setup. One little extra bit of detail IS important, though, for the particular tone I'm talking about: amp WAAAAAAY crazy loud, and gain low/output high on the TS. Then raise the TS gain 'til you get the level of overdrive you want. Do it that way, and you'll get your overdrive from the output stage of the twin which will sound really, really good recorded . . . I promise!

I'll go out on a limb here and add that I don't think the room has much to do with which amp you want to use. A good room will sound better than a bad room with any amp, and a good tone from the amp will sound better than a bad tone from the amp in any room. For close-mic'd guitar with a directional mic you should do pretty well in your basement. I think the room will affect all of the amps the same way. Whichever amp you're playing, if you try to play the amp with pre-amp drive, or use the drive in the tube screamer to make your tone, and run the output of the amp at lower volume, the reflections from the room will be quieter, but so will the amp, and the sensitivity of the mic will be turned up. If you blast away through the Twin Reverb way loud, the reflections will be there, but the amp volume will be proportionately higher and the mic sensitivity will be turned down, so within the range of volumes we're talking about, I think the room is the room, so pick the amp that gives you the best tone. Others and other threads here may have advice on dampening the room or shielding the mic in some way. I don't have any experience with that. I think you DO want to use a directional mic. An omni will pick up much more of the room which I don't think will do you any favors.

Good luck,
J
 
A few other tidbits about guitar amps that I was very surprised to learn when I was researching what amp to build... 1.) For a given level of distortion in the output signal, to double the apparent loudness of the amp you need 10 times the power in Watts. Conversely, if you want an amp that is half as loud, it only needs one tenth the power. So all other things being equal, your 45W marshall shouldn't be a lot quieter than your 85W fender. That one I at least sort of understand. It's also the reason we measure sound in dB which is a log10 scale. The next one I really don't understand, but I know it is true: 2.) Solid state watt ratings and tube amp watt ratings are not equivalent. I have a little 30W SS practice amp that when cranked to 11 is nowhere near as loud as my 18W tube amp. I think it may be that the ratings refer to maximum clean output and a solid state amp stays clean almost up to it's max output, whereas a tube amp has lot's a room above the point where it starts to distort, but I don't know this for certain. So, since all other things aren't equal, your 45W Marshall probably IS quieter than your 85W Fender. :)

I'd still go with the Fender.

J
 
I like it when the speaker kind of visibly moves. Not much though. Depending on the speaker though that might be kind of loud. It works on my small amp and on my huge bass cab. Medium size is a wierd concept. Layers are a trick, not a rule. If the speaker is bumping around a bit it means the sound is hitting the mic a bit, so it's almost overloading it but not quite. That means good loud stuff on the track.
 
Your amp has to be able to get a nice meaty tone first, and it's not about lots of volume. You can do it at lower levels, but there still needs to be some kick to it.
Then add the right mic and preamp...and that's about it.

I do most of my guitar miking these days with a ribbon, Fat Head II. I use to try running it to a nice tube preamp...but then found it sounds much better running the Fat Head to one of my SS preamps, one that is more transparent, and has plenty of clean headroom. It's a really nice combination.

And yeah...don't overdo the crunch. Basically...find the crunch tone that sounds good to you in the room...then dial it back to a more cleaner tone by about 30% or so, that will give it more fullness.
The Fat Head II just adds tons of body to guitar tones...and the tracks just work.
If anything...you'll end up rolling off some of the very low end...but the guitar's mids and highs come out great with the Fat Head...and that's key for recorded guitar tone.
 
I'm with JJJ. Tuuubbbeeee amp! That's the only way to get that sweet chest vibrating crunch we all know and love. So if bitching neighbors aren't a problem: Turn the amp up to 11. Track through a pair of earbuds and wear those foam headphones you get at Lowes (for working around saws and shooting m60s and mortars) over the earbuds... this way you can monitor quietly in the same room as your cranked amp. This works really well for me because I don't have seperate rooms to record and monitor.
 
Yeah you gotta go with tubes. Tube technology is like 100 years old and it's still best for guitar amplification.
 
Thanks, guys, lots of great advice. I'm going to stay with my Fender tube amp and use close miking with my dynamic mic (SM 57).

Just two more things. If one had a choice getting that certain loud level for that natural distortion or overdrive from the speakers, is it best to turn the guitar volume knob way up and lower the amp volume knob down, or is it best to jack your amp volume knob up and lower the guitar level knob? With either method matter in terms of what sound you get from your guitar amp if they end up the same loudness from the speaker??

And finally: jacking up the amp signal is going to create havoc with my interface input level meter (actually, just the red/green light indicator on mine). So do you leave your amp jacked but barely bring up the interface level for that input? Is THAT where to get the best volume without clipping via your interface? Or do you also have to put in input level WAY down on your virtual mixer as well before you record that signal? Maybe the mixer part doesn't matter. Just trying to get a handle on where to raise (or lower) volume knobs in the whole process: guitar to amp to interface to mixer in your software program. Or does the guitar level knob (first chain) even matter; is it at the amp where I should make my primary initial adjustment to avoid clipping? HEY: Is it the master volume knob on your amp you need to be concerned with or the individual volume knob on the amp where you input your guitar cable? Two different volume knobs! Confusing.

Mike Freze
 
Yeah, leave the amp jacked, and adjust the preamp's volume until it doesn't clip. Basically get your guitar sounding the way you want, then worry about the clipping in the preamp/interface. Don't compromise the guitar tone up front.

Also, second (or third or fifth, whatever) on the Tube Screamer. I've played and recorded in Hardcore bands since 1995 (not anymore, I've grown up and mellowed out:) ), and we ALWAYS used Tube Screamers, even in studios that could handle the volume. It's a different sound, but it sounds "pushed" or "driven", and there is a lot of control over volume and tone and in some cases may be better than pushing the power section of a tube amp (I am prepared for the attacks now)! You'd be surprised how many bands record through a clean channel with the TS in front.
 
No attacks from me:) "Get your guitar sounding the way you want" is the whole thing. Not many things more personal in this world!

Mike,

For me personally, I keep the knobs on my guitar cranked all the time. My son uses the volume knobs on his LP when he's playing blues solos (his "thing!") and it really works for him, but I've not figured out how to do that. For me, if I come off even just a little on the guitar controls, whichever guitar I'm playing, it just seems like the life comes out of the tone. I'm probably doing something wrong, but that's been my experience, so I just keep 'em on max. Play around with it. I think you will find you will get very different tones in your proposed thought experiment of turning down the guitar volume and then turning the amp up to the same perceived volume from the speaker. Which you like better, is of course up to you. What is happening with the signal between the pickups and the amp input, and then inside the amp in those two cases is very different.

Regarding your interface clipping. There's an assumption running through EVERYTHING that I've written here and that is that whatever level your amp is at, you can and will trim the gain on the mic so that you don't clip in the mic pre or interface. Coming off the level in the DAW doesn't help if you've clipped upstream of there. Every step in the chain has to be running at the right level. The SM57 will handle whatever level you throw at it, but whatever you plug it into will need to be trimmed so as not to peak. That is very important and very frustrating and I can't count the number of times I've screwed it up!

J
 
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