Getting rid of radio freqencies, qick, efficient and easy

Kelly Holdridge said:
Brian:

Have you tried your cage out yet? Any results, good or bad?

Nope. It's only half done. As soon as we get the ceiling done we'll be able to test it.

I have played my guitar with a tube amplifier and I havn't had any sign of radio waves, and that was after we put up what foil we have. If we don't have any interference right now I'm sure it will be fine after we get it all done.
 
Brian,
You mean to say that you are only half done with your shielding and you still see a significant reduction in RFI....???

Everything I have studied, experimented, designed, or built relating to electrodynamics and wave propagation leads me to be very skeptical of this. I would be interested in seeing some DATA to substantiate your claim.

Can you measure the signal strength of a few local AM and FM radio stations both inside and outside your half finished shield? A portable radio and an RMS volt meter across the speaker outputs should suffice, if you don’t have the right equipment. There will be some uncertainty in the tuning positions, so you would have to average over several measurements.

We can outline a simple experiment, if you are willing..???
 
Yeah, I'll let you know when I have time to do this experiment... between work, school, and building my studio, I'll have plenty of time to do this. :)

I didn't say I can't hear a radio, or that my cell phone doesn't work or anything, I was just saying that through my tube amplifier I can't hear any RF. Therefore, the problem isn't too severe to begin with.

If I were to do the experiment I'd probably see a huge output to the speakers of a radio, since the highest tower in the state is 5 miles from my house. It holds all the big TV stations in town. I don't think it holds any radio stations though. When I'm done building the studio and I have time for the experiment I'l be glad to give you the results of my shield, but really not until I have that free time. I havn't even had a chance to update my studio site.
 
When you are finished it would be great if we could see the numbers. Here’s my suggestion for a simple experiment that shouldn’t take more than an hour:

1)Use a battery powered (to remove any questions of grounding) AM/FM radio with as simple circuitry as possible – no channel lock-in or such.

2)Mark dial positions of one AM and one FM station with good outside reception playing primarily music.

3)Use same height and direction of radio and antenna both inside and outside. Waist high, facing north, with antenna strait up would be good.

4)Set volume using outside reception as high as possible without distortion, then don’t touch.

5)Measure RMS voltage across speaker or headphone output.

6)Tune, measure, retune and measure 15 times for each station both inside and outside. This will help account for differences in dial position or program material.

7)Post the raw data (4 sets of 15) and let us have a look:)
 
I'm not sure that the proposed test protocol is going to produce much useful data, at least for FM: with the ready availability of cheap IF stages with built-in AGC, I don't think that there's such a thing as a "simple FM receiver" anymore (except maybe in thrift shops) (;-). Even the cheesiest penny-a-pop single-chip AM receivers have some flavor of AGC these days, seems like... Anyway, once you get past a pretty low threshold signal level, the AGC (if present) will flatten out any incoming signal strength variations and mask much of the change you seek to measure. AM will work better than FM for this test- but it sounds like his problems are likely to be 100MHz and up, from his description of the signal source as TV-only.

Yo, Brian- got any ham buddies who could be persuaded to make a few measurements in exchange for a few beers? I've never known a ham that didn't have at least a gnarly old grid-dip meter, and you can actually do some pretty decent differential field strength measurements with one with some practice. I've also never known a ham that didn't like beer! Otherwise, it's a right bitch to really calibrate this stuff.

5 miles from the tower is a goodly distance. All I can say is "be very glad for that!". From your initial postings, I thought that you were much closer in. The inverse-square law works very strongly in your favor: 5 miles buys you a *lot* of quiet, compared to 200 yards. So does having the objectionable signal be FM and 100MHz and up, as opposed to 740 kHz AM!

Reminds me of another story from my misspent youth. I was putting a pre-announcement consumer product through its mandatory FCC Class-B EMC testing at a commercial EMC range back in Massachusetts. This was early in my career, just a couple of years after that WBZ fiasco. The test facility was really good, and very well-equipped, but their location just outside Boston had a noise floor that was significantly *higher* then the Class-B limits in a lot of places during normal daytime hours! We had to do the bulk of the compliance measurements on their range between 1:00 and 4:00am, and there were a number of chunks of the spectrum that were still masked anyway, and had to be handwaved...

Best of all- there was a welding shop about half a mile away that used pulse-TIG to perform nuclear-quality welding on 1/2"- 1" steel, and when they'd strike an arc on the heavy-duty stuff the whole spectrum from about 100kHz to about 500 MHz would just be solid trash: the spectrum analyzer display would just white out. Drove the EMC test lab guys absolutely _bugfuck_ when the welders would work late, since they weren't making any money when the range was full of hash. And that kind of pulsed-broadband source is just about impossible to effectively screen against to Class-B levels, even if you're the pro's pro. I think they finally moved up into rural New Hampshire in self-defense.

Be glad your studio ain't next door to those guys, too! Anyway, good luck with the rig, and hopefully you will be able to get some meaningful before and after data on your screening job. It isn't going to be easy, though.
 
skippy,
Another interesting nerdy story. Thanks.;)

Yeah, I didn’t think out the FM side of that test very thoroughly. I’ve never had much cause or interest for looking into RF circuits.

How about using just a simple adjustable LRC circuit with the choke as the antenna? Do you think that could work?
 
You'll have to do some rectification to get a DC voltage to measure. There are *very* few AC meters with sufficient bandwidth to measure frequencies up in the TV range directly!

It's not hard to build a grid-dip meter: the instructions are in the ARRL Handbook (or used to be, anyway- it's been 25 years since I've seen one...). My old copy of Markus's "Modern Electronic Circuits Reference Manual" (amusing oxymoron: it was published in 1980!) lists 3 quickie FSM circuits, each using 15 components or less- you might be able to find a copy of this in your local nerd school's library. All the circuits are reproduced from "73 Magazine" in the '70s, so a good library might have the originals, as well. And a quick web search shows a similar schematic for a *really* simple brute-force broadband FSM:

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/noapr97.htm

This would be *cake* to build. As specified, it wouldn't do a damned thing for selectivity, but just the same it might produce some potentially useful relative (before/after) information on a generic screening job. I'd do it up with a couple of decent quarter-wave antennas cut to the center freqencies of interest, I'd use a good low-inductance ground, I'd use the most sensitive microammeter I could find, and I probably would build a couple little interchangeable RLC tank circuits to load the antennas and try and peak out the bands of interest.

Still, 5 miles away from the tower, you might well need a little gain in there to see anything either before *or* after. I don't even want to think about getting into broadband amp design here....

Aaaack. I just reread this, and I'm starting to scare myself again. This is starting to get away from topic, so I'll shut up now. I'm not a real RF guy, either, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once (;-). My vote would be to find a ham and bribe him into taking some good measurements for you as before and after. He's already got the gear, most likely!
 
I get the impression that, either, I'm the youngest one here, or you guys are just really old. :)

I'm only 21, still working at getting my bachelor's degree in engineering... hell, I don't even know if I spelled "bachelor" right! These tests you're talking about sound like fun, but do I have the time? I don't know any HAM guys, and I don't really have the equipment to do a test like that. I think the best test I can give you is listening to a radio with an un finished shield, and then comparing it to the finished shield. And I can check my cell phone for signal strength.

Skippy, while reading your very exciting and griping story about your youth, you reminded me SOOO much of my Statistics instructor. This guy will just tell the craziest stories, and he's even got the voice for it. He could read children's books and make millions, and just think, he spent all those years in school, GM, and now, a teacher. He could have just sold his stories. I even heard his voice while reading your story.

I'm not a story teller yet, I'm too young for that. I let my elders do the story telling, maybe I'll learn something.

Later guys,
-Brian
 
Okay, you HAMmers...

I have a Technician class license with the FCC, but forgot my callsign (license #) years ago. As I understand it, it's good for ten years, and that expiration date is coming up soon.

Do any of you know an EASY way to find this information out? Thanks!





Oh, this thread gave me a great idea. If you can ever get an abandoned oil tank (giant cylinder ones) or water tower to record in, maybe that would be a good idea. r e VERRRRRBBBaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
 
Brian,
I’m probably closer to your age than I am skippy’s, but still I know when to listen to good advice. From his relatively few posts on this bbs it’s clear that skippy has a wealth of knowledge to share. Some of the greatest thinkers in history were storytellers, by the way. You might benefit from listening.

Personally, I was trying to help kikling, you and others avoid wasting time on a big project with very little returns. Of course, if I’m right, it makes you look a bit foolish. So, I can understand why you would resist.
 
Brian wrote: "I get the impression that, either, I'm the youngest one here, or you guys are just really old."

As a fortysomething, I'll cop to that "old" thing: no sense ducking it... Reading your article, it occurrs to me that I was tacking up window screen wire in that garage in Needham at just about the time you were getting hatched!

Eeek. Yow. What was that Pink Floyd lyric about "sliding gracefully into alcohol-softened middle age"?

I slid out of academia and into industry in 1980. I envy you your current set of instructors, from the sound of things: the guys I had for statistical methods and later on for electromagnetic theory (E&M, we called it "S&M" for obvious reasons) were singularly *humorless* putzes. You know, the kind of people that you wouldn't even piss on to put out if they were on fire.

Anyway, if there's a topic I can contribute something useful to based on my educational or professional experiences, *and* if I can do it with some humor, I'll kick in. Doesn't mean that I'm the holder of any absolutely definitive knowledge on *anything*: after all, on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog!

And Kelly- ASCII and ye shall receivii (I hadda say it- don't hurt me...).

http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/uls/
http://www.arrl.org/fcc/fcclook.php3

If you can't get it online, contacting the ARRL will probably get it for you.
 
KB5TRI

You rock, Skippy! Thank You VERY MUCH!

(btw, just need it for resume, don't have ANY equipment (or any recollection of the rules/procedures))
 
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