Gain Staging

[PDP]

As Greg said, don't focus so much on the numbers on meters - there is no absolute 'right' answer.
The other thing to consider is that you want to end up mixing on the faders in the -10db to +10db region, because that section of the fader has the highest resolution (with digital AND analogue). That way you have more control over the balance. If you set your gain 30dB too high, then you'll have to have the fader -30dB down, and a tiny movement of your finger can make a big level difference.
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Thats interesting, I'm more from -20db to 0db, for some reason I dont like pushing the faders too much over 0db, but I have been thinking I may get better sound recording a little lower and going higher on the faders.

I have to say I do memorize numbers, not as a final decision but if my usual numbers are way off I'll know to double check the track.

My mixes in Cubase are also around -6db

 

[Br3n]

i understand my interface is the analogue side of my set up as it has pre amps that run mics and so on. when i track i dont track to my meters on the interface i track to the levels in my daw. setting up a level with the analogue equipment but using my daw as the reference is this a good or bad thing?

 

[Br3n]

Thats interesting, I'm more from -20db to 0db, for some reason I dont like pushing the faders too much over 0db, but I have been thinking I may get better sound recording a little lower and going higher on the faders.

I have to say I do memorize numbers, not as a final decision but if my usual numbers are way off I'll know to double check the track.

My mixes in Cubase are also around -6db

this is what i am after thing people do that are different from others. i like to have my fader and my meter reading about the same unless the volume of the instrument is very low. i dont look at what my fader is doing i look at what my meter is doing.

 

[Greg_L]

im putting numbers out there because people then get an idea of what im doing. so they can comment on it or give feed back. theres no real question this is just a discussion on gain staging and what people do as either habits or techneques. if all people do is stop from clipping by a few db then why mix to such a quiet level why not track at a quieter level to leave headroom?

Why not indeed? As far as I know, if it's just a matter of moving faders then I don't care. If my raw mix sums too hot I'll just turn the master fader down. I haven't run into that, but I wouldn't mind if I had to. I could be all wrong in my thinking. My mixes sound fine to me so I just do what I do.

 

[Greg_L]

i understand my interface is the analogue side of my set up as it has pre amps that run mics and so on. when i track i dont track to my meters on the interface i track to the levels in my daw. setting up a level with the analogue equipment but using my daw as the reference is this a good or bad thing?

It depends on what your interface says to do. My Firepod manual says nothing about what levels to track at. It does say to track as hot as possible without clipping. Go figure.

 

[mixsit]

yeah. i am currently finding that going between sonar and cubase there are differences in the master level i work at. i find that sonar seems to give a higher sound level at -6 to what cubase does. so between the 2 i work at slighty different levels.

in cubase i work to about a -6 to -4 on the master where as in sonar i work to -8 to -6 on the master. ...

I was going to say apparent level differences might be how the meters are implemented; peak or average, speed and displayed reaction time (that can be adjusted in Sonar BTW.
But you're only talking 2 db diff? That's so close, and you saw that as a notable difference'? (Hats off to that..

I set Sonar's meters to RMS + Peak. Track record meters 24db scale, busses 12db scale.
Shoot for around line level (-20 or so RMS) from the get go tracking, watch the stray peaks fall in below zero.
Push a pre (or what ever analog stuff) on the way in as a tone option? Sure. (But maybe have to pad it some to stay in the nominal record range though.

Mostly I don't bother with track meters in the mix and I'll have the master and drum bus ones on that's about it.
Why/WTF?
Once it's in Sonar I still treat it for the most part exactly like an analog mixer. You don't have to, it's a work flow and in my opinion a good habit to have.
The tracks started around nominal' (with that headroom they are now providing), they're not going anywhere out of whack (..if they we're you'd know the reason, so check if you like)
Mix into the master meter (fader at zero, another preference), do global mix trims' at sub groups, or at the master pre gain.

do you push levels when you are tracking?

No. For the above simplicity.

 

[Br3n]

i know it's a rather small difference but it so noticable. its almost like sonar works at higher volumes or cubase at lower volumes. but giving the same readings. its very strange.

on my interface i wouldn't even know what the level is there. i have the tascam 1641. it has 1 led to indicate level witch is green orange and red. i would never push it to the orange but the level in my daw is good or what i call hot. my daw shows -3 well before the tascam light indicates clipping.
so because of this i track levels in the daw.

should i be pushing the levels a little more in the interface then adjust the line level in the daw? just for tone? is it worth the push or not?

in cubase there is no rms meter i have to use plugins to get this but in sonar i use both peak and rms on most meters. i find it extremely useful.

are there any plugs that people use on tracking that they would recommend. i know you shouldn't use anything at all but very rarely i use a compressor on vocals or bass just to smooth out some stuff pre mixing.

 

[Emerson Maningo]

The following works for me very well (all are peak values) (record to DAW, mix and master digitally)

Recording/tracking= -16dBFS to -6dBFS (maximum)
Mixing = -6dBFS to -3dBFS at the master and no clipping on each channel
Mastering= -0.2dBFS (after limiter)

 

[Farview]

i understand my interface is the analogue side of my set up as it has pre amps that run mics and so on. when i track i dont track to my meters on the interface i track to the levels in my daw. setting up a level with the analogue equipment but using my daw as the reference is this a good or bad thing?

It's neither good or bad. The point is to know the difference between the two types of meters and what they are telling you, and the difference between how the two sides of the signal chain react to different types of signals.

 

[Farview]

this is what i am after thing people do that are different from others. i like to have my fader and my meter reading about the same unless the volume of the instrument is very low. i dont look at what my fader is doing i look at what my meter is doing.

When you are mixing, it doesn't matter where your fader is or what the meter says. I could be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are trying, to a certain extent, to get the mix to look a certain way on the screen. It doesn't matter what it looks like, only what it sounds like.

 

[Farview]

on my interface i wouldn't even know what the level is there. i have the tascam 1641. it has 1 led to indicate level witch is green orange and red. i would never push it to the orange but the level in my daw is good or what i call hot. my daw shows -3 well before the tascam light indicates clipping.
so because of this i track levels in the daw.

That's one of the downsides of having all in one interfaces like that, the metering sucks and it doesn't really dawn on you that there are a few separate things going on in the one box. (preamps, mixer, converters, headphone amp, etc...)

should i be pushing the levels a little more in the interface then adjust the line level in the daw? just for tone? is it worth the push or not?

Pushing the levels for tone really only works on higher end preamps. The ones in your interface are budget preamps that will just end up sounding 'pinched' if you push them.

are there any plugs that people use on tracking that they would recommend. i know you shouldn't use anything at all but very rarely i use a compressor on vocals or bass just to smooth out some stuff pre mixing.

If you are using the plugins for the sound of the compression, that's fine, but it isn't any different than adding that compressor at mixdown. (even if you have that compressor feeding another one at mixdown)

If you are using the compressor to try to control stray peaks during recording, it really doesn't work. Any plugin will be working in the digital domain, after the signal goes through the converters. If the signal clips the converters, it's too late to do anything about it. All the compressor will be doing is turning down the clipped signal.

I do compress things on the way in, but I'm using outboard preamps into outboard compressors. I don't use compression to smooth out the dynamics as much as I use it for the sound of compression.

 

[Br3n]

When you are mixing, it doesn't matter where your fader is or what the meter says. I could be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are trying, to a certain extent, to get the mix to look a certain way on the screen. It doesn't matter what it looks like, only what it sounds like.

what i mean by this is if the meter reads 0db peaks then i like to have the fader at 0db just for visual purposes of if i put my fader at -6 then i know the peaks are -6. its more for knowing where things are not for making the mixer look a certain way. its so if my snare is to load or to quiet i know where it is and where to go with it.

right so doing what i do with tracking to the daw is fine. as i just want a clean signal.

so if i do that then set up a comp is not doing anything that i cant do in mixing. so getting outboard comps and things for pre interface is good even if the interface is receiving a clean signal without it?

 

[grimtraveller]

I don't care what the actual numbers are.

On my Akai, my Tascam and my Zoom, the screens are so small, I don't even know what the numbers are !

 

[Farview]

what i mean by this is if the meter reads 0db peaks then i like to have the fader at 0db just for visual purposes of if i put my fader at -6 then i know the peaks are -6. its more for knowing where things are not for making the mixer look a certain way. its so if my snare is to load or to quiet i know where it is and where to go with it.

The real problem with doing that is the fact that peak level doesn't relate to actual volume the way we hear it. for example, if you have a violin track and a piano track that both peak at -6dbfs, the violin will be much louder than the piano. What we hear as the volume of an instrument is the volume of the sustained notes, not the volume of the peak. A violin has no peak, it just has sustain, so its sustain volume would be -6dbfs. A piano has a peak on the initial attack of the note, but its sustain is much quieter than the peak, so the volume of the piano will be closer to -15dbfs even though it peaks at -6dbfs just like the violin did.

So the level matching with the fader position is meaningless to how loud anything is relative to the mix. You are simply wasting your efforts on things that don't matter. There is nothing really wrong with that, other than you would have to normalize everything and then turn it way down to keep the mix from clipping. It's just a lot of bother for nothing.

so if i do that then set up a comp is not doing anything that i cant do in mixing.

Correct.

so getting outboard comps and things for pre interface is good even if the interface is receiving a clean signal without it?

If you want to compress on the way in, outboard is really the only way to effectively do it.

 

[mixsit]

...should i be pushing the levels a little more in the interface then adjust the line level in the daw? just for tone? is it worth the push or not? ..

And just to recap/add.. none of the adjustments/moves/plugs effect the tracking.

 

[Farview]

And just to recap/add.. none of the adjustments/moves/plugs effect the tracking.

Exactly, the only recording level that matters is the signal level going into the converters. Anything you do inside the computer happens after the converters, so it will not affect the actual quality of the signal. It's too late at that point.

 

[ecktronic]

As long as there is no clipping I am happy. I always record in 24bit and keep my levels pretty low.
For Mixing I like to Mix using up more bits than recording. My Mixes tend to peak around -5dB. If I am Mastering the Mix I will sometimes place a limiter on the Mix and push the Mix up loud so it is hitting the limiter a good bit.
This means that I know what the Master is going to sound like after limiting while still in the Mix stage. Same applies to compression on the stereo out.

G