Fostex alignment

If you use a shareware osciliscope on your pc, what do you use for inputs? do you need stereo inputs on the computer? Not that I necessarily plan on using the osciliscope yet. Also Tim, what do you personally use when the instructions call for a 20k tone. I have the Fostex TT but it doesn't have a 20k tone.
 
I have a question, is it absolutely necessary that I get a multi-meter? Would there be another way to check the computer's output? Maybe on a VU meter or something? I actually have a USB interface with rca ins/outs for sending signals from the computer to the Fostex and back, so I was thinking maybe if I send the computer output into a mixer or something...and check the VU meter.

If this doesnt sound like such a great idea can you recommend a multi-meter that is inexpensive and will get the job done? Are the ones from Radio Shack any good? I'm just trying to keep costs down, after spending all that money on the MRL tape

Beck said:
Using your computer you would need to adjust the output level. Not all sound cards are the same. Even if you have an oscillator program set at -10 dB, what is really coming out of the sound card depends on its nominal output level.

For setting input/output levels (not flux levels) you would need to adjust the PC oscillator. To do this, generate a 1kHz tone while measuring for the correct output voltage with a multi-meter that can measure mV (milivolts).
 
cjacek said:
Tim,

How silly it may be after I have a good night's rest is open to debate but here goes: Would it be feasable and I'm not suggesting in any precise way (but inexpensive and workable) to do as "goldtopchas" suggested and run a bunch of test tones (and other sounds) and tweak all parameters (by ear) to more or less callibrate a machine for one's tape choice, less of course the mechanical adjustment, so that the "source" and "from tape" monitoring sounds matched ? No MRL tape and no other tools than a blank tape, service manual and a source of test tones and sounds. A poor man's callibration perhaps ? No laughing please! :eek: :D ;)

*** LONG ANSWER ALERT *** :D

(short answer in bold below) ;)

Don't worry, a lot of people have a hard time with this wide awake. :)

The calibration tape is necessary for tape operating level, EQ, and as you mentioned mechanical head alignment. It can be confusing because there are two different levels to deal with and people call them both operating level.

The amplification line level of the machine (what’s going in and coming out) will either be -10 dB or +4 dB (usually). However, the magnetic flux level applied to the tape is the same no mater what the line level is. So for example, a tone recorded @ 0 VU on a semi-pro half-track set for 250 nWb/m will playback at 0 VU on a pro half-track set for 250 nWb/m. It doesn’t matter that one machine has a -10 dB line level and the other has a +4 dB line level.

So, there are two independent systems to be adjusted, though they interact. The key is you can’t determine a deck’s flux level by measuring voltage at the outputs, because that voltage will be (should be) the same for a given machine no matter what the flux level is.

For most semi-pro machines you use a 1k tone @ -10 dB to confirm the signal level coming from the RCA outs is the same as that going into the RCA ins.

After that is established you play a calibration tape with a known flux level (e.g. 250 nWb/m) to make sure the output reads -10 and the VU meters read 0 for that flux level.

If you use a machine of unknown condition to record your own calibration tape, that tape will be off to the degree the machine is out of spec.

Making your own calibration tape is like making your own scale without knowing the weight of the objects you are using to balance the scale.


However, once your machine is calibrated you can make a reference tape for checking and adjusting flux level in the future… but, once your heads become significantly worn from that state you must have a full-track MRL tape again.

If you buy a typical deck off of eBay, all bets are off – it might be at factory spec, but it could be set @ 250, 355, or even 500 nWb/m for +9 tape. Also, if any of the channels are low, you can’t tell if it’s on the record side or the repro side without an MRL tape.

(By the way, if you buy from a knowledgeable seller that knows the machine and spend a little more, you can be hundreds of dollars ahead in the long run. The ending bid price is just the beginning)

Buying or borrowing a standard calibration tape is even more important now since most decks are pre-owned.

~Tim
:)
 

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Well I spent most of my day adjusting this thing...it's pretty much doing what I think it should ;)

It was my firdt time doing this, so I think that's why it took so long...

It was pretty a draining task.
 
SteveMac said:
If you use a shareware osciliscope on your pc, what do you use for inputs? do you need stereo inputs on the computer? Not that I necessarily plan on using the osciliscope yet. Also Tim, what do you personally use when the instructions call for a 20k tone. I have the Fostex TT but it doesn't have a 20k tone.

Yes, you need a stereo input soundcard to check azimuth with WinScope. Most cards these days have stereo inputs, either two RCA or a stereo mini-phone 3.5 mm. For example, with a ½” 8-track you would connect track 2 output to the right channel input of the card and track 7 to the left input. You can go through a mixer to control levels, but you might not need to. The levels aren’t critical as long as they are equal on both channels.

Also make sure your version of WinScope is 2.51 or higher. Earlier versions have a bug – stereo inputs don’t work.

For most machines you won’t really need a 20k tone for basic calibration, but if you do you can generate it from your PC with Sweepgen or equivalent, or one of the calibration CDs available.

I use this one:

http://www.tmenet.com/audio.htm

Don’t fret if you can’t hear 20k… no one I know can. :)

A portable CD or DVD player with stereo line outs would be handy.
 
Tim, I'd add to you're rep but I get that message "gotta spread more rep.. thanks again. :)

Still waiting for the MRL........ I hope the heads aren't screwed up.......
 
fred s. said:
...is it absolutely necessary that I get a multi-meter? Would there be another way to check the computer's output? Maybe on a VU meter or something?

If this doesnt sound like such a great idea can you recommend a multi-meter that is inexpensive and will get the job done? Are the ones from Radio Shack any good? I'm just trying to keep costs down, after spending all that money on the MRL tape

VU meters on a mixer aren’t precise enough for calibration. Plus you need external test equipment to calibrate those as well, and if you nudge a fader or trim pot everything will be off.

A multi-meter is the inexpensive option compared to the hundreds or even thousands you could spend on frequency counters and level meters.

Get something that measures milivolts and frequency. Radio Shack Model 22-811 fits the bill.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103175&cp=&origkw=22-811
 
SteveMac said:
Tim, I'd add to you're rep but I get that message "gotta spread more rep.. thanks again. :)

Still waiting for the MRL........ I hope the heads aren't screwed up.......

It's the thought that counts... ;)
 
fred s. said:
I've decided to check the alignment on my Fostex Model-80

The instructions in the manual seem pretty clear and easy to follow to me. I've never done this, but do generally have a lot of experience in fixing and setting up my own musical equipment (guitars, amps, a few minor pedal repairs/mods, etc...).

So just to make sure I have a clear understanding on what I need to buy,

The manual suggests using either Fostex 9100A, BASF 45513/2, or MRL 21J103 calibration tape, for checking the reproduce alignment.

So far I haven't been able to find either of these tapes. Are they still made?
I don't mind buying used at all, but I coundn't even find them on ebay.

For checking the record alignment the insructions say to

"apply a 1kHz signal to the recorder inputs at nominal -10 dBV level. The meters corresponding should indicate 0 dB..." then to record, and playback should be at 0 db.

then to "record tones from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Playback the recording and check the frequency response, if it's not in the specified performance adjust the recording EQ, and fine tune bias..."

I read before that you can send those signals for checking the record alignment from you computer? But I'm not sure how that works. Any info and tips would be great! Thanks.

MRL is the only game in town. You can order a tape from JRF Head Services and save $5 to boot. I ordered a 16 track tape and got the discount.

My tape was $135, so you can call and ask. They are great guys there.

Good Luck.
 
I just wanted to thank you guys for all the help and info, since a few weeks ago when I decided to get my first open reel recorder! ;)

I aligned it to the best of my ability with the MRL tape, and some test tones from my comoputer.

Its sounding very nice...with the 407 tapes I've been using. Nice warm, fat sound. Way better than my recordings with the Tascam 424mkIII, which was what I was using before I got the Fostex.
 
You guys helped to motivate me to proceed with my own alignments. I guess I won't be an "idiot" anymore! :eek: :D ;)
 
fred s. said:
I just wanted to thank you guys for all the help and info, since a few weeks ago when I decided to get my first open reel recorder! ;)

I aligned it to the best of my ability with the MRL tape, and some test tones from my comoputer.

Its sounding very nice...with the 407 tapes I've been using. Nice warm, fat sound. Way better than my recordings with the Tascam 424mkIII, which was what I was using before I got the Fostex.

Man, you’re fast!

When I align a new (used) machine I have to sit and think about it for a while… then I sit and stare at it… then I take a break and watch a movie. By then it’s time for something to eat… and I hate to calibrate on a full stomach, so I wait until the next day or the day after that if the next day falls on a workout day or my mom calls.

Good going. 407 is a great tape for those decks.

:)
 
cjacek said:
I won't be an "idiot" anymore! :eek: :D ;)

When did this happen... being an idiot, I mean? Geez, I go away for a day and everything goes to hell. :D
 
Beck said:
When did this happen... being an idiot, I mean? Geez, I go away for a day and everything goes to hell. :D

Yeah and next time you should seriously reconsider your times off, 'cause you're like the UN peace keeping force here, for God's sake!! :mad: :D ;)
 
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