For the piano recording wiz...

riffy

riffy

New member
I have an opportunity to record a pianist using a baby grand playing classical style music and need some suggestions. I realize that there are many different methods to miking a piano but I'll probably have 1 or 2 takes to get it right so I want to get a decent recording.

I'll be using Mackie Onyx pres going to an ADAT XT. The mics I can use are (2) Oktava MK012's (cardiod only, non-matched but close) and a Rode K2 (3 patterns available). How do you think I should set these up?
 
riffy said:
I have an opportunity to record a pianist using a baby grand playing classical style music and need some suggestions. I realize that there are many different methods to miking a piano but I'll probably have 1 or 2 takes to get it right so I want to get a decent recording.

I'll be using Mackie Onyx pres going to an ADAT XT. The mics I can use are (2) Oktava MK012's (cardiod only, non-matched but close) and a Rode K2 (3 patterns available). How do you think I should set these up?
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I once wizzed near a piano, does that count? :p

Seriously, like you say there any number of ways you could go depending upon room and piano idiosyncracies. But here's what I'd try first off with what you have:

I'd set up the Oktavas as a stereo pair mounted under the open lid (half open or full open, try it both ways as a test in your monitors or headhones before you hit the record button) Mount the pair 6" (give or take an inch or two either way) above the strings, one covering the lower 44 keys and one the upper 44. Position them from 6-10" or so below (towards the rear) the hammers. The more rock/honky tong sound you want, the closer to the hammers you should get. The more classical sound, the further from the hammers. Play with exact position a little before you start recording to tweak the best sound you can in the time you have. If the room is real bright or you have bleed from some other noise source, hanging a heavy blanket over the lid opening can help greatly.

Then if you have a halfway decent-sounding room and no bleed to worry about, and the room is large enough, leave the blanket off and set the Rode up about 6-7 feet (give or take) away from the piano perpindicular with the lid (so reflections off the lid will bounce right at the microphone. Have the mic pointing toward the lid, select mic pattern based upon how much of the room you want with the piano. This will be an optional 3rd farfield track that you can choose to use (or not) to wetten or accent the close mic tracks to taste during mixing.

G.
 
Thanks Southside for that nice explanation. Do you think that I could achieve additional benefits from reversing that explained mic order. Like, putting the K2 in close above the hammers set to a wider polar pattern and putting the 012's 8 feet out on a 6-8 foot spread perpendicular to the open piano lid?
 
riffy said:
Thanks Southside for that nice explanation. Do you think that I could achieve additional benefits from reversing that explained mic order. Like, putting the K2 in close above the hammers set to a wider polar pattern and putting the 012's 8 feet out on a 6-8 foot spread perpendicular to the open piano lid?
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The interesting thing about recording baby grands is that no two of them sound the same and that no two rooms in which they are placed sound the same. Combine that with the sheer size of the instrument and one can never say that this will always work better than that or the other. I know you sai you have only one or two takes for the tracking, but any time you might have before hitting the red button is always good to use to test different positions and possibilities (without going apeshit about it, of course ;) )

That said, the K2 set to figure 8 might work pretty nice in the piano. What I like about having two mics in there instead of one, though, is that one has individual level and processing control over the bass and high notes of the piano, providing a little more flexibility in mix processing, that recording the strings in stereo sounds very attractive to my ears, and that when recording to two tracks, one can set the stereo width of the piano in the mix to suit the piece.

As far as farfield stereo miking like you described goes, that can be a huge advantage if you are recording in an incredible room where the stereo pickup of the room ambience would be a huge component to throw in the mix. But if the room is not that great, then the stereo ambient image is not all that necessary to get (one could always throw a stereo Lexicon verb on the mono farfield ;) .) The main purpose of the farfield in that case is really just to grab a snapshot of the "whole instrument".

So, on paper, I'd lean more toward 2 in the box and 1 in the room. However, that could all go out the window if the actual sound of the strings is so much better with the K2 inside the box. I'll take a fantastic-sounding mono piano track over OK-sounding stereo tracks any day :).

G.
 
Gee wiz Harvey, you get around eh? Got this from an article in Electronic Musician...

Capturing the Wild Piano

Elizabeth Papapetrou

Mar 1, 2000 12:00 PM

"Harvey Gerst of the Indian Trail recording studio in Sanger, Texas, is a gold record-winning songwriter, studio musician, recording engineer, producer, and microphone designer. He recommends that you move an upright away from any walls in the space and mic the back of the piano. "If you can't get it away from the wall," Gerst says, "angle the piano so it's not parallel to the wall. Use your ears to find any spots that ring-which is a particular problem with uprights-and find the spot that rings least. If that doesn't work, try to mic from farther away, at the position that works best for you."
 
well, the key here is context....Classical piano===lots of room tone..

I would go with a stereo pair in the "curve" of the piano, backed by a supporting ambience omni pair a ways back from the main pair. I like ORTF, but choose your pick.

DO NOT close mic the piano. NO. This close micing approach would work on jazz or pop, but for classical music , close micing lacks the intimacy and "being there" feeling of pairs that are farther back.
 
BigRay said:
DO NOT close mic the piano. NO.
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Easy to say if recording in a studio or a chamber hall. Nowhere near so definitive when recording in a living room.

Last piano I recorded was a Baldwin baby grand (I forget the size) in the living room of a typical suburban split-level ranch house. We attempted farfield miking using three different mic types; SDC, LDC and dynamic. With all three the room sound was just horrid. There were many problems, not the least of which was that getting outside the nearfield meant getting too close to the rear walls of the room.

What wound up working best on that piano in that situation (and trust me, we worked on it *all day* with many different mic, mic position, and preamp combinations) was a Rode NT4 (dual SDC stereo) positioned as described in my previous post, perhaps a foot down from the hammers and the capsules about 6"-8" above the strings. We had an LDC positioned farfield, but wound up not even using it in the final mix because the room sounded like crap no matter what; all it did was muddy the sound.

G.
 
Consider that "close mic'ing" can still be a matter of degree. No question that you can't really mic very close and get the traditional sound of recorded classical piano. But if the room is horrible, you may still be able to find a compromise - like 18" or 2 feet from the strings using carioid mics pointed into the piano.

But, on the other hand, the client may be open to a close-mic'ed sound.
 
littledog said:
Consider that "close mic'ing" can still be a matter of degree. No question that you can't really mic very close and get the traditional sound of recorded classical piano. But if the room is horrible, you may still be able to find a compromise - like 18" or 2 feet from the strings using carioid mics pointed into the piano.

But, on the other hand, the client may be open to a close-mic'ed sound.
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That would be nearfield or midfield miking. There's a million different approaches to that with piano, from mounting on the underside of the lid to miking just outside the heel to to miking the soundholes to miking the outside of the body itself. Sometimes it can work OK, depending upon the piano and the room, but I personally find it usually to be one sort of comprimise or another; the piano is just too damn big and has too many local resonances in it's body, that I much prefer either getting the strings themselves - staying away from the hammers - or, better yet when possible, getting outside the nearfield and getting the piano in the room. Again, it depends upon the piano and the location IMHO.

Standard caveat initials package here.

G
 
Ok if you have to compromise, but if it is close micd, it will not sound like a classical piano. It might sound like a piano that is playing classical music (like a violin playing shout at the devil), but it will not sound like any incarnation ive ever heard of "classical piano"Period. go to a better room. Maybe your client wont care though, who knows? Im just anal.

;)
 
i have an upright piano in my living room that i would like to experiment recording with.

i dont play so well, but i want to try recording single notes and arranging them into a sample library type thing, in samplitude or something like that.

i'll give that a shot tonight when i get home.

i've heard its the most difficult instrument to record, i'd like to see for myself.

oh i just remembered, the bitch is way out of tune... crap.
 
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